Fionnuala: Good afternoon, everyone. And welcome to today's Nesta talks to with Luke Bramhall. Nesta talks to is a conversational event series where we bring in some of the most exciting thinkers of today to discuss some of the big issues of our time and that are related to Nestor's three missions.

Quick note on housekeeping before I start. Please join us in the conversation through the comments box, which you'll see on the right hand side of your screen. Feel free to ask questions throughout. And we'll pick them up in the Q&A session. And for closed captions, closed captions can be accessed via LinkedIn live stream.

So for anyone who isn't too familiar with Nesta, we are the UK's innovation agency for social goods. We design test and scale solutions to society's biggest problems. And our three missions are to help people live a healthier life, to create a sustainable future where the economy works for both people and the planet, and to give every child the best start in life. I'm Fionnuala O'Reilly. I'm a behavioural scientist in the fairer start team. And in our mission team, we look at how we can narrow the outcome gap between children growing up in disadvantaged, the national average.

We have a few streams of work in order to achieve that aim. We look at things like how we can support parents to create an effective home learning environment. We look at how we can use national and local data to identify children at risk and signpost them to the right services to help them. And we also try to tackle some of the bigger policy issues which are very much in vogue this week with the spring statement like, how can we configure the child care market so that it works better for parents and children and like?

So I am really delighted to have Luke Bramhall with us today. Luke is the assistant director of operations at the charity Children North East. And he leads the development of the poverty-proofing model, growing it into a nationwide intervention that is-- as part of that, they've interviewed thousands of pupils on their experiences of poverty.

He's also the lead health inequalities advisor for the Child Health and Well Being Network and regularly speaks on how poverty impacts child health and development. Formerly, a youth worker and a qualified teacher, Luke passionately believes in the importance of hearing young people's voices. So Luke, you're very welcome. Thank you so much for being with us today.

Luke: Thank you. It's great to be here. And hello, everybody.

Fionnuala: So we might dive right in. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about what poverty proofing is.

Luke: Absolutely. So as I say, great to be here and great to talk specifically around poverty proofing, what it is and the impact of poverty and particularly how that plays out within a school environment, within education. And I'll talk a little bit more later on about what part that plays in the bigger picture, how we tackle and challenge poverty. Poverty is having a significant impact on children and young people across our society as I'm sure many of us here can talk about.

So let me tell you about poverty proofing then, Fionnuala, to answer your question. So I work for Children North East, as you described in your introduction. We are the oldest regional charity in the Northeast of England, although have reaches across the UK. We were set up in 1891 as the Poor Children's Holiday Association. And thankfully changed our name many years ago, but that's where we began. And it's actually that journey that leads us on to poverty proofing.

So in the spirit of what we were set up to do, to look at combating and tackling issues associated with poverty, we carried out a consultation about 12 years ago now, and we gave out disposable cameras to 1,000 children and young people from disadvantaged communities across the North East. And we basically said take pictures of what poverty looks like to you, and that was fascinating. As you can imagine, we got 11,000 photos back of all sorts of wonderful things.

And it was just this question that just bugged us, well, what can we do as a charity to combat this poverty that you have a unique insight into? And the response actually was really clear and really specific. That the one place it can be miserable to be poor was school and the school day. And to a certain extent, that took us back a bit. And it was kind of, wow, well, what do we need to do in that space to really respond?

And so we spent a year working with a few primary and a few secondary schools. And we went into schools and did what to do best, which is speak to children and young people. And we said, well, like would you know who's poor in your school? How would you know who's poor in your school? And what does that look like? What does that mean?

And children and young people gave us such rich and powerful information. So children start talking about knowing, for example, who's eligible for free school meals because it says FSM in the register or the register was projected on the wall, and there was a blue dot next to everybody that was eligible for free school meals. And the head teacher would be like, well, no, they won't know what that means. And, of course, guess what, children and young people knew exactly what that meant.

Or you use the fancy biometric systems and it would flash up with FSM or 2.20 pound as opposed to your remaining balance. Or failing or that you go on a school trip and children will be telling us, will you go on a school trip? And if you get the brown or white paper bag, it means you're eligible for free school meals. But it was so much more than just food. It was the whole experience of the school day, where children were talking about just barriers that they were maybe facing.

So we looked at the data and those eligible for pupil premium weren't accessing extracurricular provision, so your trips, your music tuition, your after-school clubs. And, of course, cost was a barrier there, but it was further investigation, if you like. Children were saying things like, well, I'm not going to the free after-school football club because everybody's wearing the latest football strip, and I don't have it. So I'm not going to go there.

There was this-- I always remember speaking to a girl in a school where the head teacher was determined to provide these great experiences for the children who are living in poverty. So it organised for a ballet teacher to come and do an after-school club for ballet, which was free of charge. The school we're going to pay for it. And this girl said, well, I stopped going. And we kind of said, well, why did you stop going? And it was, well, the ballet teacher said you can buy a tutu. It's only 10 pounds.

And you don't have to buy it, but, of course, lots of the other children had bought a tutu. And so she'd stopped going because she was the odd one out, the one that was missing that kit, that part of the gear. But as I say, it spanned into all sorts of areas of school life, the children. No, I'm the resources at home to be able to complete the homework to build the volcano or build the castle. And so weren't able to complete that homework.

Children talked about the conversations that were going on in class. So what did you get for Christmas? Where did you go on holiday? And I've been in schools where really well-intentioned head teachers have brought children up to the front of class, so it's these people's birthday, let's sing Happy Birthday, and then gone down the line, and said, oh, well what are you doing to celebrate your birthday, and children talking about the impact of these things. And, again, it's just understanding it through the lens of a child living in poverty.

So, for example, I mean, this time of year you have lots of schools who are doing something to celebrate Easter, innit? And I remember in one school they had this whole kind of big deal-- decorate an egg. Go home, decorate an egg, and we'll do a big prize. And so there was a lot of talk in the week leading up to the end of term about everybody decorating these eggs and then at the end of term there's this big two-hour long assembly where those who created these amazing egg scenes.

And a local company had come in, and the best scenes would get these massive chocolate eggs, and celebrating-- and-- lovely idea, lovely that they built this whole culture around it, but then I sat down with some of the children in-- during that week actually in this particular school and they just said, well, we don't have the stuff to make-- to decorate that egg. We don't have the googly eyes. We don't have all the-- all this-- the paint and all the stuff that you need. And suddenly that whole week, that whole kind of sense of belonging in what was a key part of the school calendar you're just not a part of. You just don't connect to. You can't belong to it. And you just imagine sat there in that two-hour long assembly at the end and suddenly this-- you just detached in some way and don't have that sense of belonging.

Something about not just those one or two instances but this whole raft of these different instances of children just feeling on the back foot compared to their better off peers. So hopefully from that, Fionnuala, you get a sense of the kind of things that were coming out. And we could spend an hour on me giving example after example of the, at times, heartbreaking stories of children's experience of school, not because people are doing things intentionally to disclude them, but because just not looking through the lens of that child living in poverty.

Fionnuala: Yeah. And thanks, Luke. That's super interesting. I think maybe a follow-on question is how do teachers and school leaders react when you tell them some of these very basic activities that are designed to be fun and inclusive of all children are actually not doing that? How does that go down when you tell them that?

Luke: I largely very well. I mean, of course, we-- people in schools, they care about the children that are in front of them and they want the best for them. But of course, it's also sometimes hard to hear because you put in these really well-intentioned strategies to engage, to belong-- to promote belonging within a school community and those very strategies, at times, were putting in those children-- or do put those children on the back foot. And I guess there's something here about what we've done as a result of those early findings by way of the process of poverty-proofing. So that process that we-- or the programme that we developed, which is poverty-proofing the school day, is that we go into schools and we speak to every child in school. And that's really critical partly because we don't know every child living in poverty, we know we have the benchmark of free school meals, but that we know that doesn't cover all children living in poverty.

Secondly, because perceptions within a school can drive behaviour. And that's really, I guess, important to understand. And, thirdly, because what we're trying to do is not identify a child that's living in poverty and what can be done for them, this is about how can we take the learning from speaking to that school community, apply a poverty-proofing lens-- and it's that lens I'm sure I'll talk about more-- and use that knowledge to inform our policies, our processes, our systems, our structures that in turn drive practise.

And so we go on that process of speaking to every child in school, we engage with the wider school community, to parents, to staff. And then we sit down with the senior leadership team of the school and we say, look, these are all the challenges that people are facing. Let's-- looking at your context, looking at your responsibilities and requirements, how can we mitigate against those challenges and those barriers that children are facing? And it's in those meetings that we unpick-- so it's not us coming saying, oh, you're doing something wrong-- this is, look, this is what children are saying, let's use that learning to inform practise. And so it's in those meetings very meetings, I guess, that we have those discussions that can be hard-hitting but actually are really powerful.

And of course, as a school leader, you talk-- so you spend day-- day by day live and breathe the school, you live and breathe your organisation and everything that you do, so, of course, it's sometimes hard to hear. But, of course, with the rationale and the fact that this is coming directly from the voice of children, you can't argue with that. That's children's experience and so that's part of the response that we get--

Fionnuala: Yeah. And is it [INAUDIBLE]-- say the crux the recommendations that you might make-- are they about changing activities or is it that schools should fund more? So, say, in the example that you used of the Easter egg project, is it that schools should provide the materials for that or rather just change the activity altogether?

Luke: I think a bit of both. And that's that-- I talked about that feedback to senior leaders and what that looks like. And it's got to-- whatever recommendations we offer have to fit within the context and the restraints actually that exist within school-- budgets are one of those key restraints. And our recommendations typically don't ask for us to-- ask for an outlay of cost. It's not like suddenly, oh, you make all the trips free and suddenly everyone will go, well that actually that's not the reality. It's understanding the experience through the lens of that child where we understand some of those hidden costs or hidden barriers to accessing the activities that the school are putting on.

Luke: So our recommendations have to be co-produced with the school so it fits within the structure, within the strategy, within the resources that the school have rather than just saying, oh, we'll, just make everything free. It's a common misconception is that, well, if we poverty-proof it's just about making everything free, it's so much more than that. Yes, cost is absolutely something that needs consideration, but it's-- sometimes it's about the stigma, it's about those, as I say, those hidden barriers that exist there within the school day.

Fionnuala: Yeah. Absolutely. I just have a question about the operation-- operational side of things. And this is maybe a bit of a technical question, but it sounds like a pretty intensive model to interview every child in every school and I'm wondering how long that takes, firstly. How do you actually do it? Do you send in researchers to the school for a certain amount of time or what generally does that look like?

Luke: Yeah, so good question. So the-- Children North East, we have a team of poverty-proofing coordinators who go and carry out those activities and go into school. And depending on the size of the school, depends on how long we would spend in the school. But the idea is that if I was the poverty-proofing coordinator, I might come into your school, [INAUDIBLE], and then I might spend a week, I might spend three days. If it's a large secondary school, it might be a week and a half. And during that time, we would go around and speak to every single child in the school and we've got slightly different models for primary and secondary school.

But-- so during lesson time it's about interviewing, if you like, or speaking to-- having those conversations with children usually in small groups. But we-- but there's something about living and breathing the school. So I'm going in and I'm living and breathing the school. So at break time, I'm out where the children are, whether it's in the secondary school hanging around or a primary school playing some game, I queue up with the children at the canteen and I'll get a tray just like everybody else would in the school. It's understanding the full extent, the full kind of reality of the school day. So we have coordinators who go and do that in individual schools right across the country and we've got a team that are based up in the northeast, we've got a team that are based in the West Midlands who carry out that work, and we work with individual schools right across the UK, as I mentioned earlier.

But in addition to that, we also have another model because there's something about an importance of local staff, and local awareness and understanding, and who can apply the poverty-proofing lens to their work. So we've developed over the last five or six years what we call a delivery partner model. Now what the delivery partner model does is we go to local-- we work with local authorities or multi-academy trusts and we train up staff, staff that were already in schools, or in local authorities, or working with local charities in that particular area. So we train those staff up, we then model and audit. So we're saying, look, this is how it's done. And then that team that we've trained up will then carry out other audits in other schools. And it's not just that we then wipe our hands of that, actually we check in, we read all the reports-- so our central team read all of the reports to make sure that there's learning right across the country. So, oh, there's some good practise over here, we connect schools together-- there's a bigger piece at play there.

And part of that ties into how we start to then gather common themes, common threads that are running right across the UK, as well as within local areas. So we might be working, for example-- we're doing some work in Sandwell. Well, actually what's the common thread of what children are saying of their experiences of school in Sandwell? And where might there be an impact that can be made at, let's say, a local authority level or if you're a part of a multi-academy trust what's something-- how can that knowledge impact some of those processes and structures at a multi-academy trust level so that has longer term sustainable change and that's really critical to this model and the work.

Fionnuala: Yeah, really helpful. We have a question from Philip which is just about how much time it takes to talk to everyone. So is it that you interview every child individually or do you do it in groups. And, similarly, with parents and guardians, do you send out surveys or-- how is that done?

Luke: Yeah, so two things. So if I just described a typical week-- so I'm going to talk about a primary school first. And so in that primary school I would go in-- let's say it's a two form entry primary school. I would go in for probably five days. I would do an assembly the first morning and I'd introduce myself and that is really important because then when I'm out at break time children come and talk to you. Interestingly, at secondary schools, if I do an assembly, then they run away from you. But, anyway, that's another thing.

So I do an assembly and then during lesson time I would take out groups of children. So those groups are usually between six and eight children at a time and we would ask these kind of pre-set questions that we've got. Now, inevitably what that means is that some children are very happy and lots of children are very happy to talk in that scenario. Some don't and that's OK because actually that's their right to say actually I've got-- I don't want to input at this stage.

However, if someone feels-- if there's something in the gift of me as a professional-- if I see a child that is maybe wanting to talk but doesn't want to or don't feel comfortable in that environment, then that probably who I'm going to be sitting next to in-- at dinner time in the canteen. So we would speak with that group usually for about half an hour. The younger the child, the less time because of attention spans and everything else. So that's the model in primary school.

Then, as I say, we live and breathe the school day. At the end of the school day and the beginning of the school day, we would go out into the yard in the primary school and speak to parents face-to-face. We'd also send out a questionnaire so everyone's got the opportunity to have an input to contribute I guess to the findings that we've got.

Fionnuala: Such a brilliant way to weave in child voice.

Luke: Yes, absolutely. And that's critical, again, the voice and experience of those living in poverty is critical to anything poverty-proofing. So in secondary schools we've got developed a slightly different model-- very much the same kind of idea, but what we do the first morning that we're in a secondary school is we train up a team of peer researchers. These are students that already exist within the school. And so instead of going taking children out of the class, I would go with, let's say, five peer researchers, who are students from the School, into a lesson, we'd take over the lesson for half an hour-- 20 minutes, half an hour and we'd do an introduction. And then we'd split off into small groups.

So I'd take a small group, but those peer researchers would as well. And so then we meet back together and we gather all that information, so I really kind of-- as I say, for me, there's a really powerful process there. This is about young-- children and young people hearing from other young people and that feeding in, and meaning something, and making a difference. And that, for me, is really powerful.

Fionnuala: Yeah, absolutely. And I wondered if could you maybe tell us a little bit about the impact so far like how many schools you've reached and then also anything on evaluation to understand if it's making a difference to child outcomes.

Luke: Yeah, so by way of reach, we've-- I mean, we've now worked with well over 350, now, schools. And that's to carry out that full audit. So what that means in practise is that we've spoken to well over 200,000 children and young people and their experiences of the school day. So when we talk about the power or powerful impact and a case for change, if you like, that's-- it's right there.

So that's the number of schools and some of that's been through our delivery partner model. I mean, we're looking to-- we'll be well over 500 within a year from now. We have trained-- because as part of this we look to do training because there's something about this poverty-proofing lens. So we've trained over 10,000 staff to have that understanding of poverty-proofing and what it's about. So that's the practicalities of what we've delivered through the poverty-proofing intervention.

By way of impact, it's been a really interesting journey because poverty-proofing is actually-- it's about inclusion. It's about that inclusive school day and how we create that. And we've had a couple of evaluations by-- carried out by Newcastle University, which demonstrate a real impact at that school level, so in terms of increased attendance after school clubs, increased take up of free school meals, and some of those things that we don't necessarily naturally measure but are absolutely critical and we've got some case studies.

Then we've had schools self-report on some of the impacts. So there was a school that said, well, within six months of carrying out poverty-proofing, we had a 4% increase in attendance for disadvantaged pupils as a really headline-- highlight of some of the impact. And we've recently been working with Newcastle University on a bit more of a-- if you like, a desk-based evaluation, looking, well, what does this mean to some of those key indicators that schools have around attendance, around progress, around attainment, and it's very difficult to pinpoint any intervention-- any one intervention on something like that.

But alongside the school self-reporting, we're seeing a common thread particularly actually around progress for disadvantaged or pupil premium eligible children. And that's been really, yeah, that-- so we're really excited about that. That final report hasn't isn't out yet, it's being written up as we speak. But we've had the two evaluations. One was an early evaluation by Newcastle University back in 2016. And then in 2019 we had a case study evaluation, which looks at highlights in a real magnifying glass on an individual school-- or a couple of individual schools and the long-term impact of poverty-proofing and responding to the poverty-proofing report.

Fionnuala: Yeah, I mean, it sounds really promising if it's moving things like attendance, which is a pretty hard outcome to move. So, yeah, extreme-- I'm looking forward to that report. The chat is going wild here, so I'm going to try and cover some of these questions. How is the work funded? Thank you, Gavin, for that question.

Luke: Yeah, OK-- so, I mean, a wide variety of different ways. So we started off where schools would individually fund us to go in and that still happens-- probably less frequently than it used to because budgets are increasingly tight and with the hike in fuel costs, et cetera, et cetera. So individual schools will get in touch with us and say, look, we really value this, this is really powerful. Can we come and-- can you come and carry that particular-- what we call an audit out and do some training. So that's the first way.

But increasingly, we have worked with local authorities and multi-academy trusts who have funded that, whether that's specifically the delivery partner model that I described earlier or whether that's to work with the cohort of schools to test the model in their local area to see if there's some common threads locally that could be responded to.

We have had a bit of grant funding and particularly at the minute we have some grant funding in the North East, which is great. And we're always keen to look at that. But it's a difficult thing, as I'm sure many people in the room appreciate. Getting grant funding for interventions within schools can be challenging. So that's been a battle. So it's-- there's multiple different ways that we look to fund that investment in this work.

And one of the biggest challenges, I guess, just to wrap that up, is we have this really rich evidence base of these are the experiences in schools and these are the challenges that we're having. And so through our processes, we're looking at gathering those common themes and we're really interested in how we can find that funding to take that knowledge and feed it into-- and how we can work with partners actually and feed that into some of those national conversations and national decisions that are being made because it's such a rich evidence base with the number of children that [INAUDIBLE].

Fionnuala: That nicely leads on to another question from Sam Gillett, which is about-- are there any areas that you would campaign to change on a national level? And he gives the example of World Book Day, where most schools ask children to come in dressed up. So are there policies, initiatives out there that you think could just be changed on a much wider national level?

Luke: Absolutely. And there's so many. So World Book Day is an example absolutely, but there's so many. I mean, we were able to give evidence for the uniform bill that went through during COVID-- [INAUDIBLE] bill-- and we gave evidence to that. And that was great, that was us stepping into that space and saying, look, we've got all this amazing data, this knowledge, let's feed that into those discussions. And we want to of accelerate that as much as we can, as much we have the capacity to do within our networks and within our organisation.

And as I say, there are so many-- so we could-- and some of it is policy-based, so uniform is a prime example. There are certain things that we could do around national policy to inform uniform and it's great that we've got some movement in certain uniform providers not having a monopoly within specific schools. That's great. But it's the start.

There's other things which is around guidance. So the DFE publish a range of guidelines, if you like, for schools to follow. Now, they're not obviously written into law, but they are guidelines. And, again, there's a great host of things that we can feed into-- feed into that.

If I just pick up the point on World Book Day, because I think it's a really interesting one, this isn't about-- one of the things that you can fall foul of is just saying, well, World Book Day, everybody dresses up, let's just stop it. Let's just not do it. Now, actually what's really important is that children and young people have opportunities.

And particularly those that don't have opportunities outside of school, what opportunities can we create? So it's just a question of how within your school-- and this has to be done at a place-based level-- how can we celebrate World Book Day, hold true to what World Book Day is about-- it's about reading, it's about getting children looking at books and reading books, that's great-- how can we do that in a way that is truly accessible for everybody? And we've seen some good practise around people having some spare uniform-- a rail of spare, not uniform like dressing up kind of stuff. Now, that's OK. But, of course, if you're that child that has to walk in and go to the rail and choose something, then it's still a differentiation. The question for me-- and we've seen some schools do some great stuff where they've just reframed World Book day. So it might be as World Book Day, we are going to-- don't come in dressed up, but we are going to make something, all of us together as classes, to celebrate the book that we're currently reading. Or one school-- great example of a primary school, they said we're not going to dress up and we're going to-- they were doing some craft activity almost as an alternative. It's a really-- it's an all day thing, it was a big deal in that school. And the head teacher was like, oh, I'm not sure, I might have the queue of parents at the door. What's this going to mean? And she called me up afterwards actually and she said I had that queue outside my door and actually it was a queue of parents thanking me for changing that policy. Now, that's not always the case. I don't want to-- that's not always the way that these things work. But in that particular case, that was the impact. So-- and it was just about thinking about World Book Day differently and holding true to what it's about. So, yeah.

Fionnuala: That's a wonderful example. It-- we have another question from Kathryn Welf-- Welford-- sorry if I butchered your name there-- which is-- it-- you've kind of covered it already, but is there a danger that schools decide not to do certain activities because I think you'll always find schools who are ready and able to come up with innovative solutions, but the pressure is on teachers at the minute. Is it just-- do you find examples where actually it's just easier not to do anything at all and how prevalent is that?

Luke: I think that I would always discourage this idea of not doing anything. I think that-- we want-- going back to what I was saying, we need opportunities. So we could-- well, we could scrap trips. And actually if it's a senior leadership team, you decided that was the policy you were going to take, then we wouldn't put that in as a recommendation. It would be how can we make trips accessible for all. So instead of doing that big ski trip that cost 2,000 pounds that only a very small proportion of the school cohort can provide, what's the-- can we provide an experience that generates those same experiences-- something new, something different, once in a lifetime-- that doesn't have the same cost implications.

But does-- that-- where the school can maybe subsidise or support certain families to be able to engage in those activities. This isn't about not doing anything, this is about doing things but being creative. And I think there's a video on our website of headteachers talking a few years back on their experiences of poverty-proofing. And there was one-- and I can't remember exact wording that she said-- but it was this isn't about not doing things this is about thinking creatively, about how we can do things but do things so that everybody can access. And there's something about how can we create a school environment that replicates, not necessarily the inequalities that we see in society, but creates a society within itself where everybody has equal opportunity and that's absolutely, for me, what we're trying to achieve.

Fionnuala: Great, thank you. And just going back to how you actually do it day to day, we have a question from Sharon on the level of confidentiality do you offer children interested, in particular, the use of peer researchers?

Luke: Yeah. So obviously, confidentiality is critical. We have kind of well-experienced staff who lead any kind of poverty-proofing consultation, we think, very carefully, and always review our kind of processes around that. The thing is what we're not asking-- when we're going into a school, we're going to any organisation, we're not saying, who's poor and what's that like? OK? So that's not what we're trying to do.

And this is part of why in schools, for example, we speak to every child. It's, what's your experience of the school day? And it's within that that we have-- that's where we get the knowledge. And then we apply the poverty-proofing lens to that, which is what's the impact, if you would, of this on the poorest child in school, or the poorest child in the community, if you like? So we're applying that poverty-proofing lens continually.

But yeah. So we have a lot of structures in terms of peer researchers, particularly that training that we do with them. First of all, we speak to the school, and the school chooses who those peer researchers are. We don't choose them. Quite often, for example, in some of the large secondary schools, we might be working with sociology sixth form students, who are great peer researchers, by the way. It's generally because it's part of their-- they look at these kind of issues around research and poverty in their work.

And so we're not asking people to disclose anything about themselves as an individual in terms of their experiences of poverty. We're asking, what people's experiences of school? And obviously within that, there's a level of confidentiality.

Fionnuala: Yeah. And we're getting lots of questions through on where to next? So are you doing any work in arts organisations or other cultural organisations where this is also relevant?

Luke: Absolutely. So I guess we started-- I mean, going back to the journey, if you like, of poverty-proofing, we developed the model. We started working across the country, specifically in schools. And then we had a range of other organisations from other sectors, and particularly the cultural sector initially, actually, who were kind of saying, well, what does that mean for us? How do we poverty-proof what we do?

And we really kind of sat down actually with some partners in cultural organisations, and we kind of said, well, let's talk about this. What does this mean? Now, at the heart of poverty-proofing-- and I've kind of alluded to them, I've not mentioned them, I've not named them yet-- but there's three core principles. So if I'll just mention those.

So the first principle is the fact that if we're going to impact change on poverty, then it needs to start with the voice and experience of those living in poverty. So that's our first thing. That's critical. The second principle that underpins poverty-proofing is the importance of place-- so understanding how poverty impacts this locality and this geography, but also how an organisation works. The context within which an organisation works is really important.

Otherwise, we could just make it-- it goes back to that, we'll just make everything free. Well, anyone can say that. That's not-- it has to be embedded in what's real in terms of schools, as we've been talking about what's real for schools. And then the third thing-- and this is the crux of it-- is that what we know about poverty is that poverty is a structural issue. It's a structural challenge that we have within society.

And while we can't make some of those wide-reaching, UK-wide policy changes, and we can campaign on things that we recognise is really important, this is about where there's a sphere of influence. And again, sticking with schools, what we're saying is not that schools need to, you know, make sure that Tommy over there has a warm coat, because he's not got a warm coat. I would argue schools are pretty good at that kind of thing.

This is about, how can we take that really rich knowledge and feed it into the decisions that we're making within our policies, processes, structures, and systems? And that's where we see long-term, sustainable change. So there are the three principles that underpin poverty-proofing. Now, if we take schools out of the equation and park them for now, you can apply those same principles within any organisation.

And particularly, we've been able to do that within health and within culture and arts organisations. And so with both, we have developed a model. So let me talk on culture, because the specific question was around culture. So we started working with some of the larger organisations up here in the Northeast, where we followed the same principles of poverty-proofing. Now, the delivery model is slightly different, whereby we go to-- we work with cultural organisations. And we go in, and we follow, if you like, a five-phase kind of process.

So first of all, we go in and we train staff on that kind of poverty-proofing, the poverty-proofing lens, really kind of explore and get to grips with it. And at the end of that training, we say to staff, and we work with all staff, and say, well, apply that lens to your day-to-day. What does that mean? And that creates a foundational understanding of that organisation and where some of those barriers may be.

We then go and understand how an organisation works. Well, if you're booking a gig because it's a music venue, what's the process there? If you're volunteering at this venue, what's the process there? If you're doing some educational outreach work, what's the process of engaging and connecting with that?

So we understand how the organisation works. And then the crux of it, the really kind of key bit, which is where we go out to communities. We speak to those that currently access that cultural organisation, and we also speak to those in local communities that don't access it, and we work with various partners to do that. And we kind of, again, unpick and get down right into the minutiae of, well, what's that whole experience? How can we jigsaw together those challenges and barriers that are being faced by those living in poverty in accessing the amazing offer that you have within this cultural and arts organisation?

And we follow a similar process within health. So that work is happening. We have a team that specifically now are dedicating themselves to that work, and been engaging with the likes of the Arts Council with National Trust and others, who kind of have that broader remit. And we're really interested in those bigger organisations, and we've worked with a number, now, of larger organisations.

We're also interested in how that impacts on some of those smaller community-led, community-based cultural and arts organisations, where there's some really powerful work, but actually, there's always that kind of case or the opportunity to learn and to develop that offer. So that's the cultural offer. There's something else-- and I'm happy to talk if we've got time for it-- about how we're then transcending or transforming our work place within organisations into a wider kind of poverty-proofing your community, and what that means.

Fionnuala: Well, that was going to be my next question, actually, which is, I wonder-- firstly, I had a thought about regional variation and how you address that. And do you find that, actually, you've come up with a fairly set list of, say, barriers that we see right across the country? And if we were to turn this into a national programme, is there guidance we could put out that every school and every community organisation could just implement off the bat?

Luke: There's always things that are common. And we want to know what those things-- those common threads that come through-- we want to know what they are, and we want to shout about them, because we want people to be aware. You know, awareness and knowledge is really powerful. But I always say that with the caveat, and the but, and that's to do with that second principle that I talked about-- that poverty impacts places differently, and not just places differently, but organisations differently. And so it's really critical that we understand how poverty is impacting access to your organisation.

You take schools as a prime example because generally, they follow a very similar protocol and process in terms of delivery. Yet, we consistently find new things, different things. You know, we talked about World Book Day. Well, how World Book Day impacts in this space or in this school is different in this school. And there's a great example that we recognised in schools-- this was fairly early on.

It was two schools in Middlesbrough, both in very high levels of deprivation. Literally, estates next to each other. And in both schools, there was quite a lax policy around footwear. And in one school, that worked really well, and it was a real rationale, because lots of the children just had one pair of shoes, and so they didn't want to of make a big fuss about the fact that they didn't have another pair of shoes just for school.

The neighbouring school-- similar level. And we're talking in both schools, it was about 80% Pupil Premium-- you know, children eligible for Pupil Premium. So really significant levels of poverty. In the next school, what that had turned into was that if you didn't wear the latest Adidas or Nike footwear, then you were getting kind of crucified, if you like. There was a lot of you were getting bullied. There was all sorts of impacts.

So the recommendations for both schools and both settings and the feedback was very different, despite the levels of poverty. So that just gives an example. And that's the same in cultural organisations in any setting, that it looks different locally. And you need to understand that local context to be able to implement changes that are right on point.

Fionnuala: Yeah, that's a great point, and a great example as well, as where it's not one size fits all. Great. Do you want to cover the previous question that you had, Luke, which was to just extend on what you were saying previously?

Luke: Yeah. In terms of that-- so I guess this is kind of the bigger picture around poverty-proofing. We've talked a lot about schools, which is great, and that's where we've started, and that work continues to really kind of roll out right across the UK. That working culture and health, particularly, is really starting to have a similar kind of a reach, and that's great. And we're starting to see some of that impact.

To then be critical on poverty-proofing-- I'm not sure if I should be, but I'm going to be-- is that what we're doing-- so if we take schools, for example, because we talk plenty about them-- poverty-proofing, ultimately, is about alleviating poverty. It's about saying that, you know, how can we make things a little bit less bad for those children by their experiences of school? And that's good, and the work is great, and having real impact. And we're seeing that, as I mentioned earlier, around some of the evaluations on that work.

But it's kind of-- you know, as a charity, we kind of question, well, is that good enough? Is it good enough just to make things a little bit less bad? And of course, the answer is no, because we don't want children to be living in this kind of plight, if you like, with these significant challenges around poverty. So what can we do?

So we developed a-- or we are now piloting work around this notion of poverty-proofing a community, which starts within a community. So if suddenly, you imagine a community, if I'm that person living in a community, and instead of just the local school having gone through that poverty-proofing process, actually, you look at all those key assets around me. And suddenly, the local GP surgery, the local library, the local youth group, the local community centre, the main employers, the leisure services, the local hospital-- all these organisations, first of all, have a common understanding of poverty-proofing. And by that, I mean a common lens, a common ethos.

And secondly, they've gone through a process of, suddenly, my children can go on that trip at the school. I can access the GP surgery. You know, those barriers that were there no longer exist. I'm able to access the library to take my toddler there at lunchtime. I'm able to actually get a job-- and not just get a job that's low-paid and starting at what's been kind of termed the bottom rung of the ladder. Actually, those opportunities for progression and development are there, and it's not reliant on me already having money or already being able to fund my own education to be able to progress and develop in those ways.

Then suddenly, that creates a community and an environment where opportunities are suddenly afforded to me, whereas before, there was this-- just a whole host of barriers and walls put up in the way. Suddenly, those walls are knocked down. And there's suddenly these opportunities. And that's great. And at that moment, I'm thinking, great. I've suddenly got all these opportunities. But don't we want to work towards a society where that's not just something that's really exciting because suddenly somebody's got more opportunities?

Actually, do we not want to be working towards a society where those opportunities should be available, accessible to everybody equally, no matter how much kind of financial backing or your current financial status? And so that's work that we're looking to-- we're just starting to pilot in a couple of areas across the UK. And we're really excited about what long-term impact that can make within communities as well as within organisations. So that organisational work is really important. But how can that mean real, long-lasting, sustainable kind of impact and change?

Fionnuala: Yeah. And I wonder, is part of that thinking about how you bring on some really crucial organisations? Like, say, could we see Tesco being poverty-proofed, in the future? And would bringing in businesses that brands that we all know-- would that sort of lead to a critical mass of businesses then changing their processes to poverty-proof? Is that sort of the aim with that.

Luke: Absolutely.

Fionnuala: Because it feels like I can see, you know, arts organisations and schools, and there's a certain number of organisations that would be well up for this. But maybe there's others that mightn't be. And I guess, could you say a little bit about what is the plan for bringing them on board?

Luke: Yeah. I think-- I mean, there's an imperative, isn't there? You know, we want-- I think of it as employers. So you take somewhere like Tesco's for example, and what's their employment practises? What's their progression opportunities? And how are they limiting for those who are born into poverty, you know?

It's fascinating, you know? If you're eligible for free school meals, you're 10% less likely to get a job. If you do end up at university and graduate, you're 10% less likely to get a job out the back of it. You know, we know that there's some endemic kind of challenges if you start from less financial security.

And so as employers, for example-- I mean, this is something that's come through within schools, particularly within cultural organisations, where people talk about, well, you know, it's great that as an organisation, our delivery is poverty-proof. But as employers or employees, there's some significant challenges. How do we create kind of that space where employment progression, development, and even just being able to feel that sense of belonging is, of course-- you know, how does the coffee fund work? What do we do for the summer party or the Christmas party, you know? How does all that work, and who's limited from being able to engage in those things?

So there's all sorts to it. You know, right to flexible working. And we started doing some work with the Northeast Chamber of Commerce to really unpick some of those kind of employment practises. So yes, I could see this being a whole kind of piece of work around how we provide opportunities within work opportunities for access to the services that we offer, you know, ranging across a wide range of services. So we are starting at that community level.

And the critical point of poverty-proofing a community, to give us a grounding there, is, first of all, to give us a grounding. But second of all, where we go to a community and we say, which organisations mean the most to you? Now, actually, if Tesco's came up as one of those kind of critical organisations within that community, then we would be knocking on the door and saying, look, we really want to look at your kind of processes, your opportunities.

There's always going to be challenges, and people have different kind of perspectives on whether they should or shouldn't get involved in these things. However, increasingly, we are working with businesses. We're working with various consortiums of businesses as well as chamber of commerce. And the noise that we get consistently is that there's something mutually beneficial for everybody. People want good people in jobs, and people want to do good and provide for their communities. And it's hinging on those kind of approaches, and that kind of-- those values, I guess, that we can really connect with lots of organisations.

Fionnuala: Yes. Thank you so much. That's been really food for thought for all of us. And I've certainly learned more about poverty-proofing in the last hour than I had known previously. So thank you so much, Luke. I feel like we've spitfired questions at you for long enough now, so I might close off. Just maybe one final one, which is are there any sort of final remarks that you'd like to make on what is next for poverty-proofing?

Luke: Yeah. Yeah, so obviously, I've talked about the work in some specific sectors. We've focused on schools, because that's where we began, that work in culture and health-- we are also working with charities, so kind of poverty-proofing charities, which is a really fascinating area, Poverty-proofing early years settings. Again, these are different sectors who are coming to us and saying, oh, well, how do we poverty-proof what we do? And I've mentioned the work around poverty-proofing employers.

We've also done some work with some of the local authority front-facing services, such as, you know, leisure, libraries, and the like. We're really keen to continue to develop this poverty-proofing model. It's a unique approach, and we're seeing impact where we're going. And it's just because it's founded on that voice, and that voice really influencing change at that strategic level.

So we're really keen to connect with partners, connect with organisations and individuals who want to find out more, who wants to be part of that journey, really. And there's something critical about that connection-- connecting with organisations, connecting within the structures of the systems that exist already within society. And so we're on a really exciting journey. But it's not a journey that Children North East are on. It's a journey that we're all on, isn't it? How can we mitigate against? How can we alleviate? How can we move to a position where we are reducing significantly the impacts of poverty within communities, within our society? And so I very much encourage people to get in touch. Please do visit our website, Children Northeast You probably have to stick it in a search engine, but it's Children-NE.org.uk. There's a whole section there on poverty-proofing. And certainly do get in touch. And I'm sure we'll be able to share my contact details, because those conversations are really critical, and for those to continue-- it would be great.

Fionnuala: Yeah. Great. Thank you so much, Luke. Such an interesting discussion. And I'd like to thank the audience as well for some really wonderful questions. I hope everyone has found this useful.

And now that we've reached the end of the event, we're going to post a short survey to the audience to give us some feedback on what you thought of today's session. And to incentivize you all to do that survey, we're offering 50 pounds-- we will enter you in a 50 pounds lottery. So please do fill out that survey. And the next Nesta Talks To session is on Thursday, and it's with Gaia Vince, who's going to be discussing climate migration solutions and opportunities. And registration for that event can be found on our website.

So last thing is just to thank Luke again. And I would encourage everyone to visit the website that he mentioned there. And we're all going to be waiting with bated breath for the report that's coming out. And so thank you, Luke. And thanks, everyone, for listening, and have a good rest of day.