Helen Wales: Well, welcome and good afternoon. thank you for joining us for today's master talks to event Nesta is. The UK innovation is to use our unique combined skillset to create innovative solutions to address some of the biggest challenges that we face today. Our strategy at Nesta between now and 2030 is based on three missions, healthy life.

.Please do join the conversation in the comments box on the right hand side of the screen, share your thoughts and ask your questions throughout the event. Close captions can also be accessed via the LinkedIn live stream. So professor Graham Donaldson, our guest today has spent over 40 years in education and has worked in schools, universities, local and central government.

He is no stranger to change and innovation in education, a qualified teacher of history and social science. He taught and occupied senior positions in Scotland, including leading inspectorates of education and playing an influential role in the development of the curriculum for excellence, particularly in relation to teacher education with the report teaching Scotland's future in 2015, his report successful futures.

The review of the curriculum and assessment arrangements was published in Wales paving the way for major curriculum and [00:02:00] education reform here. He works as an international expert for the OACD advisors, governments and NGOs, and as a professor in the Robert Irwin center for educational change at the university of Glasgow.

So welcome professor Donaldson.

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for joining us. Um, so we thought the best place to start would be with what's going on here in Wales. It's um, seven years since successful futures was published in September where I'm seeing the first rollout of the new curriculum for Wales. Um, where are we really? And how did we get here?

Let's set the scene.

Graham Donaldson: Okay, well, to provide the context for what's happening in, in, in Wales, um, and a little billion, a little bit further back, I mean, you mentioned, uh, kindly my very lengthy service and education over 40 [00:03:00] plus years. And it's interesting over that period, if I reflect on it, uh, the kind of waves that have taken place in terms of how we've thought about the curriculum, how we've thought about the, uh, the nature of the relationship between what happens in schools and what happens, um, in the policy process.

So when I, when I first started, it was very much a free for all, uh, uh, as a teacher. But my first day in school, I was just told to get on with it. And I had a huge freedom in a secondary school at that time. Um, we then moved into a phase from about mid 1970s onward square. There was concerned about the secret garden.

That sounds politicians lost faith in the teaching profession as being the driver of, of, uh, economic development in the country, particularly. Um, and then, and that led to the national curriculum and all that, that followed in the throat, the eighties and [00:04:00] nineties, we then moved into to a period where you public sector management, focus on effectiveness.

Um, focus on outcomes was very much in the Vogue in terms of thinking about educational change, but more recently, and that, you know, uh, since about, um, uh, 2010 onwards, um, A major debate has been taking place internationally about, um, why do kids go to school? Uh, what are schools for, and what's the best, what should be the relationship between, uh, the nature of the curriculum, uh, and the broader, um, policy and context within which education is as forum.

So back in 2014, um, the Welch, I got to a conversation, a phone call from the Welsh government that asked me to come and have a chat with them, uh, about what they perceive to be an increasing set of issues around their national curriculum and assessment [00:05:00] arrangements. Uh, the, the pressures on the core were building, uh, uh, uh, and they, they, they were trying to reconcile increasing pressures with a fairly tightly defined national, um, curriculum.

Uh, uh, so I, I agreed to undertake. Uh, radical review. It wasn't a kind of tinkering review. If the agreement with ministers was, it would be as radical as it needed to be based on what I found and out of that, um, came to report successful futures. And what I found, I phoned in wheels during the, the, the, uh, preparation for that report.

Um, and I, I toured wheels north, south, east, and west, and visited many, many, many, many schools talk to hundreds, if not thousands of children and teachers. And what was very clear was that the, uh, there was a loss of confidence, uh, in the teaching profession and will almost, they were almost [00:06:00] apologetic about, uh, uh, what they were doing for the young people feeling.

Really what they wanted to do, but it's what they had to do. Um, uh, and I asked a very open-ended question. I say, well, take away all the pressure's on you and say, answer me this question. Wouldn't it be great. If now, what would that be? A and out of that grew a successful futures are of course also taking account of, of research, evidence and international, um, Uh, practice, but out of that grew successful futures, uh, which, which, um, uh, made, uh, 67 recommendations and following consultation, they will accept it in full, uh, but drawing on my experience, um, having been asked to undertake.

Um, about half of the recommendations related to curriculum assessment and the other half related to professional learning to leadership to accountability at, in other words, if you're going to be, if you're going to change the curriculum, [00:07:00] you have to set the context for that in terms of the implications, uh, for all of those other things, that ecosystem is a, is the education system.

And that's partly based on my experience in Scotland, because I think in Scotland, which was right in the Vanguard of thinking differently about the curriculum, you know, from the early part of the, of this century. But I think in Scotland, we made too many assumptions that the rest of the system could just do it and didn't invest enough in developing our, our, our teachers invest enough in, in thinking about the relationship between, um, accountability and, and, uh, Uh, what actually happens in, in school.

So, so that was the lead up to successful futures and the reform program, which has been underway now for the last five years, leading to the intention to have, uh, uh, implementation from the end, from, from next session in primaries. Um, as where we are. [00:08:00] And then thanks for that. Run through Graham. I mean, there's so much in there.

I think we're going to pick up through the course of this, this conversation. I think one thing that's, that's really important to, to drive home is after find that when we talk about curriculum reform in Wales, people who aren't in the thick of it just don't get what we're talking about in terms of, they think between a syllabus, they don't appreciate the magnitude of the reform process that's going on.

And what we're actually talking about is whole scale system change. And I guess the stage we're at now is that, that, that shift from vision and thinking into the real implementation with all those players and stakeholders, um, going on that journey in the back to make this real, um, what other big challenges in your experience for moving into that implementation, implementation stage and are there particular things that we need to be wary of?

Yeah, th that given the [00:09:00] scale of, of, of the, uh, the reform and wheels and the fact that, that, uh, the Welsh government, uh, have placed huge faith in the teaching profession on wheels. And I think that's interesting, a lot of curriculum reform kind of assumes that teachers have to be, you know, uh, dragged along behind the reform that we have to be driven to reform.

Uh, what has happened in wheels is that the, uh, the, the, the, the teaching profession. Uh, the wider community, particularly the teaching profession has been right at the center of shaping this new curriculum. Um, I know trying to make it a reality in, in, uh, in our schools. So one of the challenges undoubtedly, um, in any reform is, is legacy, is, is what's the default position.

And when you add to that, the experience, the last couple of years with the pandemic, um, one of the, one of the big questions I had in my, in my head [00:10:00] was, um, given everything that happened, uh, over the two years, given all the pressures that have been on teachers, on young people and their parents, um, we'd will still be up for.

Uh, or would they say, well, that would have been nice, but, uh, just like to get back to the familiar and let's do what we, uh, uh, what we know we can do. I think we can do, um, the surprising thing was that doesn't seem to have been the case. Um, uh, the, uh, the new minister in, in, in Wales, Jeremy Miles has, has, uh, gone on record as, as a same as a new minister.

He quite rightly would ask lots of questions about the, uh, uh, what he was inheriting. Um, and I think, um, he was surprised probably at the extent of which there was a desire to continue. So the, so the, the, the, the biggest single issue, if you like in, in radical reform is actually to sustain it, uh, is, is [00:11:00] to see it as a long term, um, endeavor, not something that happens, uh, as a, as a one off, and therefore keeping.

Uh, refreshing why you're doing it, keeping, talking about why the reformat, that's what it is we're trying to achieve for young people, why this is going to be better for young people and reminding people of that. Because once you get involved in a form, that tendency is for it to become very technical, that when you shine or the mechanics of the process, and that becomes the purpose to get the mechanics, right.

But we need constantly to remember why we're doing it in the first place. And that's the biggest single challenge I think, is not to lose the narrative, not to lose the sense of purpose that led to the original reform, especially where you have quite an elongated period during which the, um, the, the reforms are being prepared and then put into practice, you know, from the publication of successful futures in 2015 to secondaries young people in secondary, moving into qualification will have a decade [00:12:00] and decade, which that, that processes as taking place sustaining.

Um, belief in the reform and the willingness and not to lose the original purpose is the biggest single challenge. I think in the, in the foreign process, add to that, um, the implications for, for the teaching profession in terms of professional learning. And that's not training, that's not seeing here are some new things we expect you to do.

We're going to train you to do them. That seeing, because the reform is, um, uh, giving more agency to, to the, to the teaching profession, the professional learning is about capacity building. It's about helping teachers to understand the nature of their form. So, uh, in shooting that the, the professional learning process is not, doesn't become simply a, uh, an instrumental training process, but retains that capacity building.

And the other element critical element is accountable. Yeah. Yeah. I think we really like to touch on all those things, our professional learning, the V the [00:13:00] vision behind it and accountability, but parts, if we start with the professional learning side, because I think one thing that's really striking is how trust in teachers is really at the heart of reforms.

Um, and you might say it's a reimagining of the role of a teacher, or actually the reinstating of the role of the teacher to, uh, from a curriculum, um, deliver it to a curriculum developer. But with, with that trust comes, comes, responsibility comes actually, perhaps anxiety as well, and whether or not people feel prepared to deliver what you may say is a new role for them as teachers.

Um, so how do we strike that balance between, um, independence and guidance between local decision-making, which is at the heart of the curriculum and that sort of central oversight.

Yeah. And, and that's been a feature of, of the, of the process in Wales throughout the fact that [00:14:00] there were something around 200 so-called pioneer schools, uh, that was schools that opted in through the process of helping to create this new curriculum. Now, normally when you reach this stage in a, another form, um, you've got a small core at the center and you've got everyone else.

Uh, and you then have the challenge of how do you move from this, uh, uh, what the, what the court had decided was the right thing to do to bring everybody into the tent and everybody wanting to be part of the part of the process and wheels. You get 200 pioneer schools across the country. So wherever you are in wheels, you're not too far away.

From a school that actually has been involved in shaping, um, this curriculum. So you, so that's a headstart in terms of, of, of the whole process of trying to engage people in the, in the process. Uh, there also has had to be a kind of self denying, um, ordinance by [00:15:00] the, by the way. Um, because the legislation that has gone through, um, deliberately pulls back from very tight specification, very tight, um, instructions to schools about what the school curriculum should be.

And that was, uh, I know that was a very key set of, of discussions, which took place is how much do you put in statute? Because once something's in statute, it's very hard to change. Um, you become locked into the point in time. And one of the things that, that I was certainly keen on was this new curriculum for wheels.

Shouldn't be the 2018 curriculum. Uh, so that in 2025 and 2030, you're still referring back to the 2018 curriculum because it's tightly defined in, in statute. So that the nature of, of the, of the, the strategic direction, which the, which the statute sets is deliberately one, which is focusing on. The purpose is focused on the big bits of the architecture, but it doesn't get thrown [00:16:00] into the, into being too specific about the detailed to allow this to be something that is, is agile, organic, that can grow and develop, um, uh, individual communities, individual schools that the curriculum does strike that balance between not having an atomistic, um, education system, where every school is different from us from each other.

So there's enough commonality coming through the strategic framework, but huge scope for schools to then interpret and define that in ways that are in the best interest of their children and young people. And that's, that's what wheels has been trying to do. We're not, we're not at a stage. We know how well that's actually worked as this.

This is work in progress. Um, I'm not naive enough to believe that, you know, throughout every school in wheels, every teacher is just thirsting to get on with this new curriculum. So there's a, there's a big job to be done in terms of, of, of, of continuing to inspire creating a critical mass, but in professional learning terms, being [00:17:00] sure, um, that the networks are there, that the sources of support and help.

Uh, so as I said earlier, it's not a training process, but it's one where teachers can help teachers within say, And across schools that the consortia and wheels can be completely a critical role in terms of facilitating and helping to build a capacity in the, in the system. So we're at that point in wheels where, um, that process is under way.

Um, they've got a national approach to professional learning, which has been, uh, uh, being developed. It's it's, it's no in progress. It started because the pandemic that's inevitable, we're coming out of that now and trying to re-engage and, uh, uh, re-energize the, uh, re-energize the, the process. But as I see, because there appears to be sufficient, willingness to continue with the reform, uh, that's quite an optimistic place to be in terms of, uh, the likelihood of this actually bearing fruit as we move [00:18:00] forward.

Helen Wales: We did hear this week, that half of secondary schools have opted to delay the implementation of the new curriculum. Is that something that you think we should be worried about?

No. I mean, I think it's perfectly reasonable to be cautious, uh, about the new curriculum and in secondaries in particular, um, a key question will be the shape of national qualifications

Graham Donaldson: will the, uh, will the way in which the curriculum is developed, uh, be a good preparation for, uh, culmination in terms of qualifications with GSC, GCSE and beyond.

Um, and therefore, uh, there's a, there's a school-by-school decision, I think, uh, about how ready you are. Uh, uh, w w what's your anticipation of the, of the, uh, of the qualifications. So I don't, I don't think, I mean, I think that's, that is actually quite a mature situation to be in with those schools that feel, yeah, we can do.

We want to get heavy, [00:19:00] what to, we were really wanting on with us. And there's a lot of them, um, can do so, but you're not forcing schools that might otherwise be pretty skeptical or, uh, you know, worried about the reform. You're not forcing them in and too early. What I have recommended is that that secondaries, um, even when decide to delay the ought to focus on transition is very much in that relationship between the primary experience and the secondary experience.

And try to ensure that, that what we don't have is the primary is forging ahead and developing their approach to their curriculum, which when the secondaries come in is then a FET accompli. So you did so it's very hard to create what was the original intention, this clear line of sight, the smooth progression people move through the various phases in their educational experience.

So even if you're delaying as a second. My strong belief is you want to focus on transitions. Don't delete by ignoring, but delete by putting your effort into that end of the, uh, that end of the [00:20:00] development process.

Helen Wales: Yeah, I think, um, it's sort of another lesson in ha ha how, how a system, like an education system really can't move as well and a move as a whole whole when it's changing.

I mean, um, Scotland is, you know, obviously it's not been exactly the same process and the curriculum is different, but there are lots of similarities. Are there particularly particular things that we should be learning in Wales, particularly in relation to what, what good professional development looks like in this new kind of curriculum?

Graham Donaldson: Yeah. So as I said earlier, I, I think, um, uh, as I said, Scotland was very much in the Vanguard of what is now not a universal, but internationally and increasing, um, Uh, development tend to thinking about the curriculum, not simply as a transmission of, of, of knowledge, not simply as the acquisition of learning, but about the whole building of, of young people.

So they're not, it's not [00:21:00] simply what they've learned, but what they become as a result of the learnings, how we can help them to develop in order, they can cope with a very, um, uh, Yeah. Like what already is likely a very febrile kind of environment in which they are going to, uh, to list what they can five in that environment.

So, so Scotland was, was early in the field, uh, in that it's, it's four capacities, you know, focusing on curriculum, the building of capacities, rather than simply defining a syllabus and, uh, finding, uh, the subjects to be, um, to be covered in the content to be, to be, to be learned. But, uh, as I said, I think we've probably underestimated just how big a shift that was.

Uh, uh, and one of the, um, uh, one of the issues in Scotland was about, um, uh, w whether we'd invested enough in building the capacity of that and all the teachers to understanding just how big the challenge was, uh, for the teaching profession. And that actually the reason you've been referenced to a piece of [00:22:00] work that I was asked to undertake just after I retired from the insertion.

Because previously I had been talking to ministers about this, what we were getting back through the inspection process, uh, was a lot of commitment to the principles of click and flex on. So a lot of this was the right thing to do, but quite a lot of variation in terms of, of, uh, how confident people were to actually be able to engage and realize and fully opportunities.

That's what led to teaching Scotland's future, which was the, uh, uh, report. But, uh, I ended two, which really, um, made recommendations, which were designed, um, to move from teacher training, to teacher education, to build capacity in the system to try to get the university sector much more directly involved, not just in repeating new teachers, but throughout the process of a professional, uh, Moving towards a master's level, um, profession and, and, and, uh, having that as an integral part of, you know, how a teacher would grow and develop would be, would be, would be coming [00:23:00] along professional learning that would, uh, corporate, it would involve that would involve the universities.

Um, and, and interestingly, the, the, in Scotland, there was a review done of teaching Scotland's future commissioned in 2015. I think that was that dramatic difference in how we teach it. Uh, what previously was, was in service training, uh, at the, the notion that a teacher was much more intimately involved in taking responsibility for their own professional development and the school, and the employers had the correspondence funding of creating the context within which, you know, that, that, that personal responsibility can be discharged there's opportunities.

Uh, That was reinforced by the work of the general teaching council, which revised its standards, this whole business about professional growth, professional learning. So if we, if we take that forward into Wales, um, then what we have [00:24:00] seen is John for a long professor, John for long undertaking, a review of, of a teacher education.

Huge differences in terms of the way in which teacher education pre-service education is, is, uh, conceived and, and, uh, and delivered in Wales. We have the development of the all Wales, masters, um, uh, which I think is an incredibly powerful development where, uh, the universities across wheels have cooperated together to create a single masters, which can be delivered in by different universities.

But which has the same kind of, which has, which has operates within the same frame and relates directly to the educational reform that wheels is engaged in. So you're, you're building capacity and the universities are much more intimately involved in that process of, of, uh, of, of building capacity. So, so I think the big lesson from Scotland is, is, is about invest in building the capacity of the program.

And I mean, it's almost a no-brainer, isn't it, you [00:25:00] know, which learning, you know, the entertainer, the teacher and a young person, that's the key. Um, the key part of the learning process. So if you invest in that, um, invest in, in, in the, the teachers who are engaged in that you're likely to bring about, uh, the kind of improvements you're looking for in that, uh, uh, at that end of the.

Um, I'd like to move on to talking about qualifications, which you've, um, you've referenced already qualifications assessment, it's exam season, where getting the usual stories about, um, exam anxiety this year, we're hearing that some schools can't, um, you know, that's struggling to staff their examinations from fibrillation.

Um, I think one of the challenges with exams and I think has been particularly picked up in Scotland is that they do create a very top down approach that they can distort what comes before and with all the best intentions, um, people look towards the exams and what comes at the [00:26:00] end. Um, how is it possible to create a qualification system, but it doesn't have that impact.

And if not, what is the best way to avoid it? Yes. I mean, I think we, we need to recognize that the qualifications do represent the culmination of, of, uh, of, of education for all young people at different forms at different stages. And therefore, uh, it's naive to think if we get the curriculum, right. The qualification will just follow.

So I think, uh, uh, it probably also was an issue in, in, uh, in the Scottish context, which wheels I think is learning from. Uh, and that was we, we had in Scotland that kind of, of, um, because we were so concerned that qualifications, um, we're driving secondary education, right from the start, when a young person enters the secondary school, they worked, we had that very powerful backwash effect from, uh, qualifications, um, with the best of [00:27:00] intentions, we then said, well, let's, let's, let's develop something.

And thinking about qualifications, let's let them grow into the curriculum rather than the other way round that the curriculum has to have the qualification. Let's see if we can do that. Um, I think no one reflection, the reality is we need a much more literate as a process that in fact, the, the two needed to be developed much more hand in hand when we came towards, um, secondary education.

Uh, and in Scotland just now, um, professor really say one is leading, uh, uh, uh, uh, our, uh, form, which is, um, asking those very specific questions. Uh, but just the, what the question you've just asked is the question, which the reasons got them then and her group I'm actually working with one on that is, is designed to, to, um, uh, to help answer.

But in the Welsh context, qualifications, wheels, uh, has already been involved in the process of, of consulting of talking to, um, uh, colleagues about. Can we square the circle? Can we develop [00:28:00] a qualifications process, which is true to our curriculum purposes, but also serves the fact the qualifications are the tickets that young people need in order to move into the next stage in their life.

If they want to go to university, if they want a particular job, if they want to involve in a business. Um, so qualification, I've got to be generous. Like they've got to look in two directions, um, and that's the process that, that, uh, is currently underway in wheels and which got, and now I think is, is re-engaging with, uh, with the catalyst of the pandemic, uh, which was, I think led us all to realize that, um, the qualifications process, um, uh, w w what we saw in, in, in, in, uh, in the UK in relation to qualifications and, uh, Gordon to about, uh, has written a very good report on this, um, is that the UK was less recently.

Than most other countries it's [00:29:00] called. Cause we're too dependent on examinations. They're all dependent on examinations. And as soon as you can't do that, you're then in difficulty, many other systems have a much, um, a closer relationship between, uh, the, the, what the teachers are developing in relation to their understanding of young people, achievements and, and, uh, uh, external, um, ways of recognizing those achievements that are not simply dependent on sitting down for a couple of hours or three hours without, with a pen and a pad of paper.

So, so our system, uh, which is actually relatively unusual, UK wide, I mean, relatively unusual, internationally, uh, has, has proved, uh, has lacked resilience in the face of the pandemic. Um, and I think where we are now is to see, can we produce a way of recognizing young people's achieving. More broadly than you can certainly do through an examination.

That's not to say examinations don't matter, or they shouldn't have examinations, but they [00:30:00] are they're emotive assessment. And we need to develop those modes of assessment that assess and recognize what it is that matters. Not saying how we assess has got to define what matters. And so it's just turning the, asking the question a bit, a bit differently and that, um, in both Scotland and Wales, that process is now, uh, uh, helpfully, I think underway.

Yeah. I think that there's quite a lot that we've learned from the pandemic when qualifications aren't I think not least the fact that that's quite a lot of young people did quite like them and they sort of missed having that. Um, and, and of school. Um, this is where I, um, assessments, I think like sort of the education system, the qualification system, as you say needs to please so many people and it's looking in so many different directions.

Helen Wales: Um, I mean, if we, if we. Could start from scratch now with qualifications and design, something that really flew, uh, grew out of the curriculum for whales. What, [00:31:00] what would be at the heart of it? What would we be doing? Well, I think it tends to qualifications. Is it, is that thing I just talked about? It's it's.

Not saying, this is how we assess and, you know, w what we want, what matters has got to fit within that. It's, it's asking the question about what modes of assessment are going to be best for the purposes that we are pursuing.

Graham Donaldson: course, you have to fairness and reliability, and that's, that's a, that's a factor which has to be taken into account.

All the systems, got the balance, validity and reliability. Um, Uh, gone to what talks about dependability uses the word dependability that the qualifications I've got to be dependable. They've got to be valid in terms of, of, of relating to what matters when it got to be reliable in the sense that they are fair to all young people.

That, that, that said that when, of course our current examination system has built in [00:32:00] inequity in terms of, uh, you know, the nature of the, how you've been prepared, the nature of, of, uh, the, the context within which, you know, you're able to, to, uh, prepare for examinations. Um, and there's a personality factor too.

And in terms of, of, uh, sometimes gender related in terms of, of who responds best to that, sit down beaver and pencil type examination as opposed to more tenuous, uh, assessment. So I think what we've learned is how flexible can we be. To be true to what matters. And I guess the other, the other side of that is if we're trying to develop a learner driven a child centered curriculum, but then we have an learner driven child centered teaching methods, but then we have a one size fits all qualification and assessment system that that's, um, really misaligned with with the vision and I guess sort of the more the right space, um, heart of, of the curriculum that [00:33:00] we're trying to put in place.

Yeah. So, and, uh, I think that's the, that's the challenge. Interestingly, if, if, uh, if we go back 40 years or 30 odd years, um, there was a lot of thinking about this, uh, back in, uh, in the, uh, sixties and seventies, uh, and the development by examination bodies of what was called mode three. Um, and that was where, uh, you know, uh, a school-based curriculum could be externally monitoring.

Um, I an examination body, so that was the reliability, but, uh, but, but the, the, uh, the school had a lot more control over the nature of, of the, uh, of what was being assessed. Um, uh, not how it was being assessed, but what was being assessed. So there's, there's quite a lot to draw on. And I think, again, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's very difficult for us to not to be, um, uh, overwhelmed by the past, [00:34:00] you know, that's, that's how we do it here.

And I, I, I think that the pandemic. Has, as you say, it has caused us to think about that more carefully perhaps than we might otherwise have done. So it's been a catalyst, but the nature of what is the niche of the world is going to develop in the next decade would have driven these changes. Anyway, it's just, I think pandemic has had a catalytic effect and of course the use of technology, um, and teaching and learning, but also in the assessment process, uh, w we understanding how to use that technology to help us do what we want to do.

Uh, I think we'll be, uh, we'll be particularly, uh, uh, significant. And again, the pandemic, I think has probably for all of us has led us to. Um, lose some of the field technology than some of the fear of, of, of, uh, the, if it goes wrong, uh, [00:35:00] uh, to understanding actually we can probably make this work and if it goes wrong, it can be fixed.

Um, and I think we don't have that teaching profession and a, and a society, but certainly a teaching profession. That's much more confident, uh, about technology than was the case two or three.

Helen Wales: I just want to ask one more question on the assessment and accountability theme that, and that sort of around the move away from national summative and the phase assessments and this, this real commitment that as the purpose of assessment is to understand where learners are and to support them in their progress.

Um, I mean, like you said, we are really tied to our existing ways of, um, Holding the education system to account and our existing methods of assessment. And I think there are, there are people who are really anxious about the fact that we're not going to have these big, um, benchmarking exercises and sort of know these, these aware, this cohort of children and young [00:36:00] people are what, what's your response to people who have that anxiety?

Graham Donaldson: Well, like most things there's, there's a, there's a trade-off that we've just got to face up to. Um, we have had a, you know, a period, I mean, the, the, the notion of, of, of, uh, benchmarks and, and, uh, you know, metrics driven change, um, as relatively recent. I mean, that's, that's, that's the last 20 years really that has been, uh, been around.

Um, and we know that we know from experience, um, uh, that while that gives you. Uh, information on a kind, uh, it also has a very, very significant backwash effect in terms of the nature of learning. So, um, if you, if you, if you focus on, on, on, on that as being, um, the driver of accountability, then what you tend to get is that process then distorts [00:37:00] the way in which assessment is used for learning.

Um, so the purpose of assessment could becomes all about judgment rather than the purpose of assessment being to help young people progress and move forward. It moves away from being diagnostic and becomes much more, um, uh, judgment in the, uh, in the process. Uh, and one of the recommendations in successful futures was, um, if there's a tension between, um, assessment for accountability and assessment to help young people learn assessment to how young people learn should whenever.

We need to find other ways of, uh, uh, and shooting that we, we have enough of a handle on how the system is working, uh, in order to, um, be confident that we are making progress and to identify where there are problems, but that should not, it's just completely wrong. If that then starts the process and hampers the process of young people, uh, young people's learning.

And I think, uh, [00:38:00] wills is, is, is grappling with us just now and trying to move towards different forms of, of, of, uh, assessment, for example, at a system level, um, you can do cohort sampling so you can get on how, you know, whether the, the, the system as a whole is moving forward. Well, uh, without having to test every child, you know, in every school, um, on a very, on a very frequent, very frequent basis.

Um, so I, I, I think again, one of our big problems is we tend to polarize everything, you know, Some of the bad formative good or formative goods. And we do all the time, you know, as if you know, knowledge, good skills problematic, we just pull the line were dichotomized things. And the reality is that what we need to do is to think sensibly and rationally about how we, um, draw on all of the experience and knowledge.

We've got to arrive at a system, which is both get sufficient confidence about [00:39:00] the fact that young people are progressing. It should, as they should in their, in their learning, but not in a way that leads to the learning process itself being, being undermined. And an example of that in wheels, I think.

We'll introduce the categorization system for schools, um, a traffic light system, uh, green, orange, red, which was done for good intentions. The intention was as a triage system. So if you are read that many need lots of support, if you agreed, you don't need as much support, but of course that the backwash effect was that red became a badge of dishonor.

So the schools that needed more support. Well, the ones who were trying to hide the fact that they needed the support so that the system of accountability was actually distorting, but it was originally intended to do. And we've got all those unintended consequences run through accountability systems and having been a former head of an inspectorate I'm acutely aware of the poem of, of a, of a, of an external [00:40:00] accountability system to do good or to do harm.

Um, and we, we need to maximize the good and minimize the harm. I think it is that question, isn't it. As soon as we start ranking and grading, we, we, we put in, um, we attach judgment to it and you used that word sort of judgemental of yourself. And I think one of the things that, um, sort of is really interesting about the kind of change and the kind of culture that we're trying to instill is how you create space.

Um, But not necessarily for people to get things wrong, but for things not necessarily to be right first time, I mean, it's a classic innovation question, isn't it? How do we create a system that allows people to keep learning and to build and develop rather than, um, making those judgments, that things aren't working.

And I think it's particularly hard in education and perhaps particularly in devolve contexts where education is increasingly [00:41:00] politicized and it's probably going to become so, so how do we, um, keep that space for trying, testing, learning collaboration, avoiding judgment, and also how do we, can we avoid that politicization of education, which can be so, so crushing.

Like so many things. This is all about cultural and leadership. It's about professional leadership. It's about political leadership. And as we've seen in wheels, it's about politicians who are sufficiently brief, uh, to give up the illusion of control. And it is an illusion, uh, you know, so you can, you can look strong.

Uh, you can look as if you're doing the dynamic things, uh, but what you're doing is harm. Um, but it doesn't look like that. And, and in political towns, it can come across as something which, um, uh, uh, please, well, uh, if you present it in the, uh, in the right way. So I, I think that, that, that, where we need to get to, [00:42:00] um, is, uh, a situation where, um, both professionally and politically we're alive.

Uh, uh, so that the, the, and that means, I think that as it's happening in Wales, the teaching profession has to be much more intimately involved in the process and policy process. Uh, that doesn't mean to say it decides, but it has to be much more intimately involved would be unfortunately, all too often end up in a situation where as a teaching profession, we see what we don't like, and we find it very hard to influence what we do like, um, and that debates happens elsewhere.

Um, so I think that, that the profession needs to become, um, and has become an wheels. Um, Not adversarial, but much more, uh, you know, part of, part of a constructive process. And that requires, uh, politicians to be mature enough to be able to, uh, [00:43:00] engage in that there's a similar kind of discussion taking place in Scotland, just snowing.

And there's a report that's just been published that, uh, uh, Ken Muir, uh, led, uh, which is looking at national infrastructure and looking at this relationship between what happens locally and what happens at the, at the center and asking the question that, you know, how much should Holly Reed decide and how much, um, believing.

So it's the same kind of debate as, as we've had in Wales over the course of the last, uh, the last five or six, five or six years. Um, there isn't a pat answer to this. Um, it does require, um, I think, uh, it requires a, a, you know, a, a mature discussion, uh, that looks strategically not at the next two or three years, but looks well ahead and says, if we are going to have an education system of, if our young people are going to experience the kind of quality of, uh, uh, education, which they deserve, and the [00:44:00] standards are going to rise, but we need to define standards in relation to what really matters, not just what we measure.

So. Um, quality of experience going forward, thinking about that in the longer term. And then thinking back from that, in terms of what are the conditions from all that we know, what are the conditions that are most likely to lead to that? And how do we have the kind of agility that, that means that we can, you know, once we embarked on it, we don't use plunge on blindly, but we can, we can make the adjustments, we've got the feedback mechanisms that allow us to, to, uh, to make the, make the adjustments.

So in terms of your question about, about risk, um, uh, w we obviously need measured risk. It's not reckless, it's not, it's not just, you know, I'll do what I fancy. Um, but having, having been clear about the purpose, having been clear about the, the, uh, the, the values, and actually, there's a very interesting quote from, uh, Mark Carney in a former governor of the bank of [00:45:00] England, uh, in a book, which is our own values, um, which the peripheries said, um, Uh, have we lost what we really value in our drive and, um, uh, has our vision been so narrow that we've lost what we really value and that's talking about economics.

I think the same thing can apply in education that are dry for effectiveness, um, means that you get into a kind of improvement trap where you improve things that are less and less important. And you miss sight of the things that when you lose sight to things that really matter, um, and risk and all of that is about trying to bridge that gap.

It's not reckless, but that's how I measured risk in order to try and ensure that we are being brave enough to go beyond the CIF.

So many things I'd like to ask I'm aware of time and the questions in the chat. But, um, one thing I'd like to, um, sort of [00:46:00] make sure that we do cover is this question of the, the attainment gap. And I think it's sort of come up in, in different forms in our conversation. So far the question around examinations and inequity, the questions around what is it that actually matters.

Um, I mean, what is it the heart of this gap for you and how do we really address it? Because persist, it's persistent, it's stubborn, um, lots of educational reforms. Haven't really done that much to help, um, make sure that the education systems, frankly, don't continue to disadvantage people who are disadvantaged.

I've got a lot of, a lot of what relates to the attainment gap happens outside the school doesn't happen.

It's important that schools do all that they can do. Uh, but part of that, um, political question that I talked about is, is the understanding that the nature of what happens outside of school is a critical [00:47:00] determinant of young people's capacity to be able to benefit from their school and it has to offer, um, we, we have, I very helpfully I think, um, got an increasingly, um, powerful understanding of the importance of the early years of bulletins of those, those years, including, um, pre-birth, you know, the, the nature of, of, of the conditions that are created for, for, uh, a young person, um, to grow and develop because of.

Um, we talk about the attainment gap, but actually the attainment gap is largely a function of the expediential gap. Uh, and we need to ensure that we're giving our young people, those experiences, um, that fire, that imagination that, uh, you know, make them want to engage in learning. And you've just got to look at, um, you know, 2, 3, 4 year olds, um, uh, who are.

Their thirst for learning is, is, is limitless. You know, you just, I mean, I know with [00:48:00] grandchildren, it tires me out, you know, their, their, their, their desire to learn and their excitement about learning. They're exciting about doing new things. Uh, no, in, in, in some families you can play lots of stimulus for that, and others it's much more difficult to do so that the expansion of, of, of, uh, early education and, uh, the broader conception of, of the, of the experiences that we need to provide for all young people, uh, as the, as the move through and into the more formal school system that, that probably is the single most important thing we could do.

We know, you know, with the time a young person reaches the age of four or five, the gaps already there, and that's before the school, uh, you know, formal education, uh, and starts, I don't know, Yeah, of course formal education. Doesn't start until seven or eight, you know? So there's this, there's something about the nature of, of, uh, the, the, the excitement and experience people sometimes.

Talk as if play was something that was the thing you [00:49:00] is unimportant, but that's how young people learn. That's how they learn is through plea with a stimulus is via for them to do things in their plea, which is part of the learning. That's what the very skilled are very, very skilled. Uh, early education practitioners are, uh, are so good at.

And, uh, investing there as, as, uh, pays huge dividends. I'd like to ask you sort of about that in relation to this idea of transitions. And you talked earlier about the importance of secondary school building on year seven. So that's sort of bottom up rather than top down approach that we've talked about in relation to the effect that qualifications can sometimes have.

Um, I think one of the biggest transitions for children is, is that transition into school. Um, In the early years. So how do we really support that transition to be positive? And how do we make sure that early education, um, and its role in supporting children where they are now [00:50:00] at this point in time is really honored rather than falling into that trap of early education, becoming a sort of preparation ground for school.

I mean, I think the answer is in your question. Um, I mean the reality is that that, uh, it's a wee bit counter-intuitive, you know, as a, as a, as a parent, um, you know, if you see your four year old, um, you know, S you know, sitting down and writing, being taught to write, um, you can think. That's great. Uh, but we know that that early experience, um, whatever advantage that may or may not have, has gone by the time you get, you know, seven or eight.

So that's that, that kind of early assumption that formal education. Um, is going to give you, uh, uh, uh, give them an advantage. Just isn't there. As I said earlier, and in wheels, that's what the foundation phase development of the foundation fees was intended to do. Uh, it [00:51:00] was intended to provide that, that a much richer understanding of, of how you create, um, the stimulus and space, uh, for experience for young people, uh, which then blows into what the experience in school.

Unfortunately, one of the things that became evident to me and looking at the, um, Uh, when I did my review was that the good intentions of the foundation phase were being eroded by the testing regime, uh, which took place at seven eight. So, so increasingly, uh, schools were telling me what actually having to move to more formal, uh, education, because they're going to do the tests.

Um, and therefore the foundation phase was gradually, um, and in many cases was, was, was, uh, weathering a lot of stages of it were weathering. And the intention that what we have is something that builds smoothly forward and, uh, it was, was being undermined. So I think, again, it's, it's, it's, it's consistency of [00:52:00] understanding.

The purpose at is learning from, from the rich experience we know have about what actually makes a difference in terms of, of young people's learning and, and providing, uh, bridging that expediential gaps seems to me to be absolutely critical. We do that. It's really interesting that you talk about parental expectations there as well.

And I think you've talked earlier about the narrative and the vision, and I wonder if we've done enough yet to, um, sort of make those mainstream in the public consciousness. I think we're all very tied to school is what our experiences of school were. And, um, if, if, if parents feel that the children are learning to write at three or four is a good thing, that's, that's quite a battle for some, for some teachers.

So that question of how we take the whole nation along with this vision, I think is, is, is really significant. Um, we've had a couple of questions in the chat. Um, [00:53:00] somebody who rah Ray studios has asked about the inspection, uh, framework, how much scope is there in the current inspection framework to allow schools to develop alternative approaches.

And I guess that, that takes us back to that question of accountability. Like how. How can accountability also, so give, give permission and encourage and not just restrict. Uh, well, again, that's, that's a very pertinent question in relation to, uh, in relation to wheels, uh, sounds as if I've been doing nothing but writing reports, but the, uh, the welfare inspector, it, uh, invited me to do a review of, of, of their inspections in the context of the educational reform in Wales.

And I wrote a report for them called a learning spectrum, and that was deliberately, uh, had a double, double ed, obviously inspections very much about how well are young people learning, but inspection needs to learn. Inspection needs to be about itself. You know, learning as the system, as [00:54:00] a system develops.

Um, so estin, um, have dropped grades in their evaluation of school. They work with schools, um, and they're going to provide cause w what grades did was to, uh, as a former head of on spectrum, I was acutely conscious that, um, I had this very powerful resource, these very able people, and they were spending so much time working out which side of the lane we're going to make those judgment about whether the schools excellent are good.

Um, and so what, so what, at the end of the day, it's much more important that resource is used, uh, to capture the school, uh, and to help the school move forward. So you've got this external force, plus the school working together to try to bring about improvement for, for young people. If there's a problem, you go into a different mode than you can.

You can deal with this school schools that are letting children down, but the vast majority of schools, that's not the case. So inspection and wheels is changing very dramatically. Uh, very dramatically, uh, pilot inspections have been taking place in the course of the, [00:55:00] uh, the period since the, uh, uh, the, uh, end of lockdown and new framework will begin to operate in a, in a new session, but it's trying to provide reports, which are much more of a, a narrative, much more trying to capture, uh, the reality, you know, setting up, giving, recognizing that responsibility for improvement rests with the school.

It doesn't rest with inspectors. So inspectors don't automatically know best. Uh, but putting the two together, put the external and the internal together, you're much more likely to arrive at something which is a balanced view about, about, you know, the way in which that school might move forward. So.

There's a lot to learn, I think from the way in which, um, Esther and the inspectorate and wheels are, uh, re-imagining what inspection is, uh, uh, is as foreign wheels. Uh, and, and that, that treats the teaching profession, not as, um, people to be bullied into getting better. Uh, but as [00:56:00] cool professionals you work with in order to collectively serve children as relevant as possible.

I think what strikes me is just, just so interesting is that there's a model for what teaching and learning is in the classroom and the relationship between teacher and child and how learning is one that. We're seeking to replicate it all levels of the system that, that, that we understand where we are.

And we, we go from there, we work collaborative, we can work collaboratively. We understand our strengths and weaknesses. It's what we see at the school level, but also what you're advocating for within the inspectorate. So that systemic unity is, is, is at the heart of the vision. Again. Um, we've got one minute left, but we did have one question in the chat about international examples.

And I just wonder if you could give us one international example, um, that you think Scotland, Wales, England even should be looking to, to learn from as we move forward. There isn't one. Um, there are lots. Um, [00:57:00] I, I mean, one of the things that, uh, I certainly learned is that you, you don't look. Uh, Finland or a Stonier or, um, uh, New Zealand and see, well, we'll just do what they do.

Um, there are, there are, there are bits that are happening in, in, in, uh, in different countries or insights that you can gain from practice, uh, internationally, but you have to be true to your own context. You have to absorb, take all of that, absorb it, think about it, and then relate it to the context that you actually work in.

So Estonia, which is probably the poster child piece of terms, you know, um, uh, invested very heavily in technology, um, really seen massive transformation, how they thought about the role of technology in education. Well, there's an important message there, uh, which we need to, uh, uh, which we need to take Finland for a long time has gone for a master's level professional invest in your teachers.

Well, there's an important message, uh, that we can get, uh, you know, [00:58:00] so. But we do need to learn, uh, it's that process of, of that engaging, networking, learning from, from, uh, colleagues, uh, across the world, but being true to ourselves, being true to our own context of what's possible in the context and what our aspirations are, uh, for, for our young people, uh, as they, as they move forward.

And I think there's some quite exciting things happening in Wales. And increasingly again in Scotland. Sorry. So look, look broadly elsewhere, but understand what it is you're trying to do and remain, remain focused on that and your own vision as, as, uh, the message. Um, no, it's not policy copying it's, it's, it's learning it's, it can be stimulated by seeing things that happen elsewhere.

Uh, but that doesn't mean to say you should, you should copy it as why generally I'm reluctant to talk about best practice, because best practice is very context specific. Uh, best problems is better than best. [00:59:00] Thank you. I mean, that's another thing we could have thought about. I think I've got, I've got a whole list.

We've maybe got through it a third of it. So, um, thank you so much, Graham for your time. Thank you everybody for your, your comments and questions in the chats. Um, we've really enjoyed talking to you and I know that this is a debate that's going to keep on going, because as you say, reform is continuous and education and the responsiveness of education to what is needed for children and young people in the wider world is something that is always got to be at the forefront of our minds.

Um, so, um, We'll be sending out a short survey. I think the link has already gone into the chat for you. Um, just if you could give us some feedback on the event, we'd be very grateful. And as a thank you for filling out the survey, you can enter a prize, draw to win a 50 pound book, shop.org dot voucher. I can see Carla's posted the link there.

Um, the next next to talks to Nesta talks [01:00:00] to event is happening next Thursday, the 26th of May. Um, we'll be talking to Skeena, Rathor about how to harness your climate anxiety. Um, so I'm sure that would be really interesting once again. Thank you to everybody for joining us. Thank you once again, and finally my thanks or to, to Graham, uh, please keep in touch with us at Nesta about our missions.

If there's anything you'd like to know more about our work, feel free to make contact. We'd love to hear from you, but thank you very much and goodbye.