Tom Symons: Hello. And welcome to our latest Nesta talks, our conversation event series with today's most exciting thinkers on the big topics related to our missions and innovation methods. My name is Tom Symons and I'm a deputy director in the Fairer Start mission at Nesta. We're the UK's innovation agency for social good. We design, test, and scale solutions to society's biggest problems. Our three missions are to help people live healthy lives, create a sustainable future where the economy works for both people and the planet, and to give every child a fair start in life.

Our mission here is to close the educational disadvantage gap at age five by the year 2030. And here to talk about this topic is Abigail Miranda. Dr Abigail Miranda is the head of the Early Years and Prevention Department at Anna Freud. Anna Freud is a charity that aims to build the mental being of the next generation. Abi's work aims to support children in the early years and to intervene early when there are relational challenges to prevent the escalation of mental health challenges later in life.

This involves research, clinical work, and working with policymakers, including through the National Centre for Family Hubs. Abi is an educational and child psychologist, who specialises in supporting children in the early years with a focus on special educational needs and disabilities. Before joining Anna Freud, she worked in local authorities in London in various roles, including educational psychology, early support, and connections in a youth offending service.

Abi has co-designed sessions on anti-racist practice alongside an educational practice colleague. And addressing intersectional challenges faced by children, families, and practitioners is a key aspect of her work. Before we move into the discussion with Abi today, I just wanted to let you know that you can participate in this conversation by joining in and posting comments on the right-hand side of your screen. Here, you can ask any questions that you like throughout the event.

And after Abi and I have had an initial conversation, we'll be asking those questions that come through from the audience, putting those to Abi. Closed captions can be accessed via the LinkedIn livestream.

So, I wanted to get us started, Abi, a very warm welcome to you. I wondered if to get us started, you could just tell us a little bit about how you got into this area, and why it's important to you.

Abigail Miranda (Abi): Thanks, Tom. And thanks for having me here today. It's a pleasure to join you all. I think that's an important question, where I started. And I think like many of the people on this call, it came from a place of passion and wanting things to be different for the next generation. And I think like so many of us, my own life experience has played a huge part in this. So, growing up with many of my family members being service users themselves, being from a minoritized background, and having experience with different services, I saw the value of different policies and how they impacted my journey to being here today.

And I just really think it's important for children and families to have access to timely support so that they can achieve their kind of best outcomes in life. So I was very passionate about studying psychology. And I am interested in the human mind, and how it works, and prevention as well, and how we can support people to develop to the best of their abilities. So that's just a bit of background.

Tom: Thanks. I think that's powerful and important that the sort of initial inspiration for your sort of journey and career in the space is such a personal one. I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about that interaction of child and parent mental health, and what that means for how a child develops in particular when they're very young before the age of five.

Abi: Yeah, sure. Yeah, maybe just starting with a personal anecdote, I think I was raised in a generation where a lot of parents believed that education was so important, which it is, but sometimes to the detriment of thinking about mental health, well-being and relational connections, which I think sometimes are harder for people. I think it's so much easier to sit with a child and practice phonics than it is to hold those big and difficult feelings children have, especially when they're quite young. And they can be quite overwhelming for parents as well.

So, thinking about how, yeah, how parent and child mental health is so important, I think thinking right back to some of the studies and psychology that show us that infants are kind of wired for social connection, whereas I think there was a misconception some years ago that children just really needed their basic needs to be met. But that need for connection drives us as humans and is so important. So think about how parents can be well supported in their journeys to parenthood.

In Anna Freud, we talk quite a lot about the concept of mentalizing as part of this. So, us being able to think about our own emotions and feelings to then be able to think about the emotions, thoughts, and behaviours of another person. So, you need to be able to kind of switch between being able to mentalize yourself to being able to mentalize the other person. And I think that I found-- I find interesting as a psychologist is that our mental health, so much of it isn't developed through psychologists, and psychotherapists, and other professionals.

It's developed through our everyday interactions with people who love us, care about us and are interested in us. And I think that's such a key part of it. And obviously, we see children where parents might not have the kind of-- they might not be an emotional space to be able to provide those enriching experiences for children. And that's-- those are the families that will go on to require more support.

Tom: Thanks. Thank you for that. And I wondered if you could sort of shed some light on what that current support system looks like for a family who are facing mental health challenges. What would it currently look like if you were in that situation? How would you access support? What's available?

Abi: I think that's-- yeah, it's an important question, and one through the work that we do with Family Hubs we can see differs depending on what kind of local area you're in and what is available to you. But there are some general principles that I think are kind of true for families in all areas that you should be able to access. Universal preventative services are there to bolster those relationships with your child so that's a very universal offer.

And then you have a more targeted offer for when there are parents, carers, and families who are starting to experience a higher level of challenge, to ideally bring them back down to being able to use universal services. And then you have the more specialist services where families need a higher level of support, likely individualised support. And at that point, it's likely to-- they're likely to need to have support to think about maybe intergenerational patterns of trauma that they might have experienced that might be quite entrenched.

So that-- those kinds of different levels. Ideally, families will be able to receive joined-up support from different agencies in a coordinated way because we know that that's what families tell us works for them.

Tom: Thanks, Abigail. We're going to come onto some of the Family Hub later. We're going to talk in a bit more detail about that. But I wanted to just sort of maybe go on a-- just sort of explore a bit more the sort of initial question which-- with you. And I wanted to see if we could take the kind of intersectional lens to it. And I wondered if you had anything-- any kind of reflections or thoughts on how these challenges might present to people from different backgrounds. I think we're used to seeing kind of family structure in very kind of Westernised terms.

And I wondered if there's-- what we can say about different views on that, and how it can relate to these-- those sorts of challenges.

Abi: Thanks, Tom. Yeah, a really important reflection I think. And in lots of the research and evaluations of different family support services that are out there, there's so often a cohort of families that just don't get to access services at a universal level. And unfortunately, we see these families accessing more acute mental health support services or experiencing kind of negative outcomes. And in terms of-- I guess, to focus, I guess, on that prevention angle, and thinking about mental health as not just the presence of a diagnosis, or the absence of difficulties, but the--

I like the UNICEF mental health toolkit document where they talk about it being the presence of a positive mental state where you can cope with challenges that you might come across. And thinking about it from a preventative lens, and thinking about how things are done maybe in kind of typically more global South cultures, although I'm acknowledging that culture is not homogeneous, and it's-- different people use it in different ways.

But now that there is often such a kind of collective approach around a family, I think in our societies, we typically see families as two parents and a child.

But in other societies, how you might have a huge network of support around a family. And in some of those cultures, you might not leave the house for a certain number of days. There might be certain dishes that are cooked for you that are meant to nourish you after that your body goes through pregnancy and birth.

And I guess all of these are based on the wisdom that tells us that families need support in the early days so that they can develop bonds with their child in a way that is as stress-free as possible because when we're focusing on our basic needs and our basic needs are not met, it's really hard for us to form those relationships with others, and to be able to mentalize and to hold our feelings, and the feelings of another.

So I just find that interesting and how, yeah, there's some more collective approaches towards supporting new families. That can be quite helpful.

Tom: Yeah, I think that's a really important point. I was reminded yesterday of some work we'd done in a community in the North of England. And it was an exploratory discovery piece of research. But one of the most startling findings was that when we spoke to parents, the number of people who would report feeling isolated, socially isolated, and not having any contact with family or friends in relation to their parenting was really high.

Of those we spoke to, it was over 50%. And I think that it's-- I think that is-- can be a function, as you say, of that kind of Western framing of the family as this individual isolated unit. And I think that there's a reason we have the saying, it takes a village to raise a child, I think because there are so many other social connections and support that parents and children need for that to happen. I think we could hopefully touch back on that part of the sort of social connection bit when we come onto the Family Hubs part of our conversation later.

But I wondered if just in terms of the direct support that might be needed to address some of those challenges you've been talking about, I wondered if you could talk a little bit about what you would like to see for us to be better equipped, I guess, to support families? What do you think we need to fix to improve that support?

Abi: OK, yeah. It's quite a big area, really, about the potential for making things better for families. But I think that working within an ecosystemic model is so important. So thinking about, on an individual level, the skills that parents should be hopefully equipped with when they enter their parenthood journey, I think, is just one small aspect of it. But then thinking, as you just talked about, social connections and families not being isolated. And then thinking about practical things on a policy level that could be done to support families.

I mean, if we think about the first 1,001 days as being some of the most critical in a child's life, just reflecting on actually, do we treat those that period, do we give it that kind of importance that it has in a child's life in terms of the policies that support families to be able to build those relationships with children? So I think that that touches on things like parental leave, for example.

There's so much there that can be done. But I think another aspect of it is parents, I think, really value having access to support from professionals because it just-- it can really-- it can be protective to parents to be able to ask questions to have advice early on into problems arising so that they can tackle them and change the ways of dealing with them.

So having access to professionals like health visitors, and midwives, I think is so protective for families. And it also provides us with that kind of social connection as well, even though they are professionals. But they are relationships that we build as well with people, with real people, which are important.

Tom: Thanks. Just wanted to remind the audience that if you've got any questions for Abi, you can pop those in the chat on the right-hand side of your screen. And we'll be able to pose those to her later on in the discussion. Abi, your organisation, the Anna Freud Centre, is a national partner in the Family Hubs programme running the National Centre for Family Hubs. I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about the origins of the Family Hub problem-- program and where it came from.

Abi: Yeah, it's really-- it's really-- I found it intriguing when I did a bit of a deeper dive into the Family Hubs approach, which is an approach for integrated, preventative-- universal and preventative support. And a lot of the origins came with the approach we have in the UK. It came from an American model. And it was really interesting to me that it came from this-- the Head Start approach, which was essentially a summer school programme, to begin with. And it was very much focused on education.

However, there were community organisations like the Black Panthers that started breakfast clubs for children because they recognised the importance of children having adequate nutrition so that they could access education so they weren't falling asleep in class. And there was such a problem with social deprivation that children weren't able to access nutrition. And it was really interesting that the Black Panthers when they established these breakfast clubs across the US, the US government paid attention and said, oh, look. This is an approach that works for children. And let's expand it for all children.

So that became a key part of their Head Start approach, thinking about how we integrate not only education but how we integrate the physical development needs of a child as well.

Tom: Yeah, that's fascinating. And I think great to sort of know a bit more about the origins of the programme. I wondered if you could tell us a bit more about Anna Freud's role in supporting Family Hubs, and how that's all going.

Abi: Yeah, so as you mentioned, we're partnered-- we're partnered with foundations who are our evidence partners. And our role at Anna Freud is to support those local authorities and all the innovative work that is happening there by enabling them to access case studies of what's happening in other local areas, and for them to access support around things like governance, and theory-- theories of change.

Because the idea is that there's not going to be a one-size-fits-all approach. And local areas, they know their populations best. So what we're trying to do is to give them the tools to be able to conduct their population needs assessment and to find out what the kind of gaps in provision are, and also what the research and evidence base tells us, and thinking about a really broad range of children and families when we think about that, who gets seen, who don't get seen, where do we need to tweak approaches to fit?

And this is-- I guess, this is why our approach at Anna Freud is very much a learning process. So we constantly kind of evaluate our processes. And we have participation advisors involved internally to help us to develop that and make sure that our resources are accessible, and that we're thinking about how we're building the voices of children and families into all of the work we're doing. So it's an ongoing process. And it's-- we're always kind of continually learning as part of that.

Yeah, I think that's so important about the need for the presence and involvement of families at all parts of the Family Hub agenda. And I think that sounds really positive. I suppose taking a sort of broader view of the Family Hub's progress, I think there are something like 75 or 85 local authorities who've been given funding to start developing one. I wondered if you could tell us anything about any trends you're seeing in how local authorities are approaching that.

Yeah, so as I said, there's lots of-- so much innovation that's happening. And we're privileged to be a party to seeing that innovation that's happening. And some of the kind of really key approaches, I think, are-- is obviously as someone with an early years background, it's pleasing to see early years as the kind of heart of a lot of the Family Hubs models that are being taken up in different local authorities. And as part of that parent carer panels being formed, I think, and yeah, really keeping that start for life offer at the heart of the approach there.

But then it's also really interesting to hear about Family Hubs that are developing youth offers and thinking about the needs of older children and young people as well, thinking about integrating other policies like reducing parental conflict that have an impact on the trajectory of children and the families too.

And thinking about place-based approaches, for example, some family hubs are using schools as a community hub, and thinking about how that supports families with that whole notion of Family Hubs being able to meet families where they are rather than [INAUDIBLE] expecting families to come to a place where they don't normally go. And schools are a good example of that.

Tom: Yeah, and I think there's something that maybe gets missed by the term Family Hub about what has happened with the offer to do with the sort of digital accessibility of support and resources, is there anything that you can-- that you've seen about how local authorities are trying to create a kind of-- the digital provision of support alongside sort of physical hubs?

Abi: Yeah, so I think that-- I'm just thinking about the infant feeding as a great example of that, knowing that people will need support at all different times of the day. So, I think having that digital offer is so important. And for parents to be able to access that kind of high-quality advice and support when they need it. So, the infant feeding offer is a great example of that.

And then there are also, I think, building on from the local offer approach that's used for children with special educational needs is thinking about how Family Hub services are working towards mapping all their local offers together so families have one point of contact to know what support is available out there.

Because really, that's your front door is knowing what services are available to you, and who you go to, and where you go to access that kind of-- the support you need in a timely way.

Yeah, and that can often be quite a confusing thing to engage with as a parent if there's not a sort of one place you can go which tries to integrate everything all in-- all in one go. So, I think that a really important part of the offer is to try and bring that together and signpost people accordingly.

Tom: I know that many of the-- [INAUDIBLE] part of the development of Family Hubs is that they are embedding parent and child voice in how they are designing the offer. And there is-- it's great to see this kind of deep co-production featuring now more prominently in this kind of thing. I wonder if you could tell us about what you've observed on the sort of co-production piece on Family Hubs and anything-- any kind of reflections from you on what you think makes co-production successful, and any pitfalls that we should be avoiding.

Abi: Yeah, that's-- I think that's such an important question. And I think co-production is one of those things that we all want to get it right. We all want to include the voices of families. But there are so many constraints that sometimes stop that from happening. And I'd say that co-production, one of the things that people will have noticed is it does take quite some time to do it well. And that whole kind of engagement piece and making sure that kind of all of the relevant stakeholders are in the room.

And even within the participation pools that authorities are using to make sure that they have a range of voices there, I think, is it's-- it can be a challenge. But I think it's a challenge that lots of people have stepped up to by thinking about things like how they incentivize volunteers so that it's not just people who have kind of the space and time to be able to come, come to those events. So, at Anna Freud, we use the Lundy model of participation.

And what I like about that model is thinking about how you include people in participation and you also kind of complete the journey by feeding back to the people who've given their views as to how those views have been embedded in the work that you've done. So, it comes full circle, And some of the-- yeah, I'd say some of the pitfalls around participation have been where people just don't have the time available. They just don't have the time-- they have tight timescales. And that often means that even with the best will in the world, the co-production doesn't tend to happen as well as it could.

I was just thinking as well about the term co-production itself. I like-- I've heard people use the term co-creation at times as well, which really kind of illustrates that you're starting with a blank slate and not kind of bringing people into a journey that's already kind of formed. I think-- yeah, there's some innovative ways of it being used.

Tom: And how do you approach the initial framing of the exercise, I guess? What sort of advice could you give on how you can set the right expectations and make sure that people feel their engagement and contribution are meaningful?

Abi: I like what you just said there. I think in some ways, that does answer the question about setting the expectations and making sure that people are kind of fully briefed about what their role in any piece of work would be. And it's really important to think about those power imbalances within a room where you have members of staff who might be paid, or even like the voluntary and community sector, and how we kind of explicitly work towards naming that as well.

So, when we're having the co-production, we know that if a parent and carer are there on their own, they might have a lone voice. But how we empower them to speak, and I think making sure their expectations are clear from the offset and preparing them with the relevant documentation that they need to be able to go through in accessible ways.

So, I know so many of us fall into this trap of using acronyms that we're so familiar with. But even something as simple as thinking about the terminology and whether it's accessible to someone who might be a layperson, I think, is key in helping to ensure engagement.

Tom: Thanks. I've got a few more questions for you, Abi. But I can see some questions coming through in the chat already, which is excellent. So, we will get to those in just a second. If anyone else who's tuning in would like to ask Abi any questions, please do just pop those in the chat on the right-hand side of your screen. I'm just going to ask my-- use my chair's privilege though to ask a couple more questions before we move onto that.

I wondered if sort of stepping back a bit from the Family Hubs agenda, I wondered if there's anything you could tell us about the sort of best examples of support for family health, family mental health challenges, or more generally, early childhood development. What are the sort of best examples of that? What should we be copying from the rest of the world or things that you've seen in the UK that we think we should be scaling up?

Abi: Yeah, there's a lot of innovation, I think, happening across the world, which is interesting to hear about. And I was just thinking about some of the approaches that address the practical side. Because often, when we think about mental health, we think about kind of emotions and more of a cognitive side. But thinking about making sure that the basic needs, I think, of the family are in place. We see that in different parts of the world where, for example, families get a care package when they come home from the hospital that includes a kind of bassinet and the essentials that a family might need.

And that's important because, in the earliest days of a child's life, there is an increased risk of infant mortality. And we know that prevention can really-- those approaches can help to prevent that. But in terms of another kind of approach for family, mental health, and thinking about that, I think is encouraging families with the support that they need in a timely and joined-up way, and having access to different professionals so that families can get that advice and support when they need it I think is so important.

And that could be midwives and health visitors, and making sure that there is a continuity of care, I think, which is so important. And other kind of broader factors as well, like being able to access other professionals, but also having the advice and information about things like relationships and bonding. So it's positive, I think, in the UK that we're starting to have more conversations about the importance of the early years and the importance of parent-infant relationships. I think that is a huge step forward in the right direction in terms of mental health.

Tom: Yeah, I mean, that's great. And it's often-- it's easy in these discussions sometimes to get-- for it to become a bit doom and gloom. But that is a great, positive step that we're seeing. And the final question before we go to our audiences. I wonder if you could sort of-- anything else that you have seen that's giving you cause for optimism at the moment.

Abi: So, optimism. I'm thinking about-- I think going back to the example of how Family Hub started. I think seeing the voluntary community sector as part of Family Hubs, I think there are so many examples of innovation, and innovation, and practice-based evidence, and the developing evidence base that's coming along, I think. So it's positive to see, I think, Family Hubs and just mental health approaches in general, really thinking about the needs of different populations and thinking about how they can be supported and included, and that we can think of different ways to support and include families.

Social prescribing, I think, is a really interesting way of thinking about it and how we can reach families where they are, and how we can use things that we know about mental health, and those social determinants of health as well, how we can include them. So I think that there are lots of steps in the right direction that give hope-- cause for hope and optimism. Not to mention early years, I think, becoming more kind of higher up on political agendas, which is it's really important.

Tom: Brilliant. I'm going to ask some questions now that have come through from the audience. We've had a couple from Nathan Singleton, the first of which is, which measures have you seen used effectively for demonstrating impact?

Abi: Oh, that's a really-- I think that's-- the impact question is always an important one. And I think with Family Hubs, for example, the measures that have worked quite well are the ones that have come on the back of having a very kind of strong logic model, I think. So we're thinking about not just the output in terms of the family and the child, but things that we'll see in the shorter term like more integrated working, like data sharing arrangements, that are working for children and families.

We're thinking about referral pathways and mapping who is accessing referral pathways, and what those waiting times are like for families of different backgrounds. So I think some of those softer measures are often missed. But they're so important because we know with the prevention agenda, you don't often see those impacts until maybe 10 years down the line. So it is really important to think about measures of-- to think about kind of integration, accessibility of information for families, and yeah, how many people are accessing, and how useful they're finding the information too.

Tom: Thank you. Nathan's second question is, how can we encourage a kind of community slash-village approach in a Western context rather than service dependency? What can we do to support vulnerable people to expand-- extend those social support networks?

Abi: I think that's-- there's so many different approaches, I think, that we can think about there. And I guess thinking about families and where families have got that social capital themselves to be able to make relationships, and the families that you said earlier, Tom, that might be more kind of isolated, and thinking about how we focus and prioritise those families where they are at risk of increasingly kind of negative outcomes, and thinking about peer support methods have worked well in that respect.

So having people with lived experience who can support others in a way that is kind of non-judgmental, in a way that relationships are focused, and there are so many, I think-- we could have a whole session on just thinking about relational practice in itself. But those kinds of-- the importance of relationships is developing like that therapeutic alliance where you know I want to help you and you trust me to help you. So building that trusting relationship, I think, is key. And peer support workers are one way of doing that. But there are other great organisations as well who are doing work within families and communities.

And I think thinking about the pathway of families too, so you're thinking about, I think-- the question was around kind of reducing dependency. But thinking about actually if we're offering some support, what is the next step? How can you be signposted into-- back into universal services? I think it's always important to keep that whole journey of the family in mind.

Tom: Thank you. We had a question from Leah Attwell. What kinds of gaps are you seeing in research that the Family Hubs are using?

Abi: Research gaps that the Family Hubs are using. I'm just thinking about-- research gaps. I'm thinking about the-- thinking about kind of mental health. I think that-- as a good example. And there are-- school attendance might be a really good example, I think. And because it can be such an idiosyncratic topic, and there are so many different causes for children struggling to attend school. And I think having that kind of local data collection does help to see what the kind of issues are on a local level, and then what can be done on a local level as well.

And thinking about the kind of research that Family Hubs are using. I'm thinking more about the people who are not accessing services at present. And yeah, just broadening, I suppose, when we look at the research and evidence base, who is conducting the research. So we're thinking about different and innovative approaches to mental health.

I think-- I was just thinking about mindfulness being a really good kind of current example that's embedded in our everyday practice that 20 years ago might not have been seen as being something that would be so mainstream now today. So thinking about how we can think about different forms of therapy and to trial them and test them in a Family Hubs context. I think that is so important to check that they are working, and for whom they're working.

Yeah, I think that's a key point, and I think something I hope more organisations will be looking into. I think that question of kind of what works for who, where, why, and when I think is, really, really useful to get into. That's moving behind-- beyond some of the sorts of more blanket presentations of effect sizes and evaluations, I think, is key to getting bespoke support for people.

Tom: I had a question from Felipe Ferreira, who asks, do you see a strong potential in artificial intelligence and tech in supporting parents-- parents—sorry? Supporting parents or helping local authorities and other services to support parents?

Abi: That-- I was having a discussion with a colleague this morning about AI, actually, and how there are some kind of different platforms for AI that can be more kind of intuitive and sensitive. So yeah, I think that AI will have a huge kind of role to play in terms of parental support. And I think it can be used to supplement those existing relationships that parents need.

So again, I guess when we're thinking about the wide range of needs that parents might have, thinking about those who might be able to access that kind of lighter touch support and those who would need a relational approach with someone who understands their kind of specific context and how they can kindly be used to complement each other rather than having one or the other, I think, will be quite important.

Tom: Yeah, do you see any, I guess, kind of risks or challenges for the use of technology with parents who might be more vulnerable in many senses? Do you see barriers to the adoption of that kind of tools?

Abi: Yeah, I definitely-- I think that they're-- I see that there could-- I mean, when we think about the digital divide, I think, there are pre-existing barriers, I think, to accessing technology. But I also think thinking about AI is that AI is informed by human intelligence. And we know when we're thinking about kind of gaps in research, that we know that there are examples of research gaps that come across from different voices not being represented in research that are then replicated in AI.

So then we would have that in terms of parenting, and different kinds of parenting approaches, and advice. But so I think it's really important that parents can kind of form those trusting relationships with the people that are giving them the advice. And they're able to-- they're able to discern for themselves what is the best approach for them to take with their child.

Tom: Yeah, I think a really important point there about not-- certainly not perpetuating any existing societal biases by sort of training an AI model on which-- on data on which those are present. But I suppose also something, I think, you were saying in there is about the need for AI to provide a kind of diversity of advice, and not to slip into providing parenting tips or guidance that is essentially homogenised based on what's currently available on the training data. Is that fair to say that's sort of the argument you're making there?

Abi: Yeah, I think so. And I think actually when we think about even with putting AI aside for a second, but if we think about evidence-based parenting programmes, a lot of the families that I work with who have children who are neurodivergent, for example, will often say, that's great, but these approaches just do not work for my child. And I need something more bespoke. So it is really important to think about those, obviously, good practice principles that you would ascertain from parenting programmes.

But then actually, there are some situations where you'd need to be able to apply creativity and be able to sometimes have a critical friend to bounce ideas off when something might not be working for you. Why might not it be working?

And how can you adjust that approach so it's relevant to your situation, and so it doesn't perpetuate harm, I guess, to the child when we're thinking about concepts like ableism when children are encouraged to look like everyone else, but then they end up inadvertently masking sensory behaviours, for example. So yeah. We have to think about that as well when we think about mental health and preventative approaches.

Tom: I wonder if we could just keep going on that line of questioning for a bit because I'm interested to know kind of what you're seeing in Family Hubs development that's there specifically for children with special educational needs.

Abi: Yeah, so I think thinking about the preventative approaches, I think there are lots of really great examples of the Family Hubs approach being used to support children who might need support developing language skills and equipping parents with the tools to know how to do that. Because one of the-- I think one of the hardest things to do is to be able to know how to support the child, and just to have-- just to have someone who can say to you I've worked with children who've had this kind of profile of needs before. And these are the things that can help.

And, to just give parents that reassurance to say we're not going to be able to address this issue within a week, or a month. And actually, these small-step targets are what we're looking at. I think having that kind of level of support is important. And thinking as well about children, for example, who might not be accessing education and making sure that they are still able to access provision outside of the house when possible with different people. So they're keeping that routine of being able to have relationships with people outside of their-- the people that they live with, I think.

Family Hubs are a really good touch point for that kind of support as well. So thinking about quite a broad range, I think, of special educational needs and how Family Hubs can support them. And with like for older children providing positive activities for social interactions with others, that can be kind of carefully managed by an adult who's quite skilled and can provide quite interesting experiences for children, I think. It's really important to build on the strengths of children and families as well as just focus on things that aren't going well.

Tom: Thanks. We've had another question which sort of takes us back to this question of AI. And I think we can also sort of expand that topic to include generally digital, digital tools and apps. It's from Michael Strange. He asks, do you see any development of AI tools in your field coming through from the public sector or as opposed, in fact, to the public sector being the procurer of these tools from the private sector?

Abi: That is a really good question. And I'm just trying-- I'm trying to think of something off the top of my head. And I can't think of many that I've seen coming from the public sector as yet. So I guess that probably speaks to most of them coming from the private sector at the moment. But that would be-- I think it would be brilliant. And when I've seen different tools developed by the public sector, I think that they've-- yeah, they've just been so valuable and so well kind of embedded within local contexts as well. So it would be great to see more of that. And it would be.

Tom: Great. Thank you. Still time for any final questions from the audience if you have them. But I'm going to ask you one question before we--, there is one that I'll just go to, a question from Natalie Lai, which has come through before I ask my final question, which is, are there any roles-- sorry. Are there any roles that schools and educators can play in Family Hub considering the challenges they often face when collaborating with parents on children's education?

Abi: Yeah, schools and educators, I think, play such a huge and crucial role in Family Hubs. And yeah, I think staff in schools do such a huge amount already. So many of them are going over and above their kind of specific remit as educators to support the kind of practical well-being of children and families, as we hear about teachers who provide meals and extra snacks for children, washing clothes on site, and things like that. So I think that schools collaborate with their voluntary community sector and their-- the health colleagues in their local area, and the local authority staff as well.

I think they are well-placed to continue -- developing that relationship. And I think because primary school staff in particular often have that kind of more regular contact with parents, I think schools can play a really important role in developing those relationships over time with parents. But it's so important for them to have that information about what else is out there in their local area so they can signpost on. Because schools can't-- they can't do everything for everyone. So it must be a collaborative effort.

Tom: Thank you. I'm going to wrap us up now with one final question. And in doing so, I want to give you great power for a brief moment, Abi and I want to put you in charge of a joint government, the Department of Health and Education, mixed. Make you the secretary of state for that joint department. And I ask you, what would be your joint-- your top priorities? What would you do on day one if you were given that role?

Abi: Well, I feel really powerful. But also, yeah, really kind of acknowledging the weight of this responsibility as well. And so I think that having access to kind of high-quality support from the first days of a child's life so thinking about the basic services that family needs in terms of health visitors, and midwifery, and continuity of care, I think that would be a key aspect of the role.

And then thinking about childcare as well, and childcare in education, having access to high-quality childcare and education, I think those are two of the most important things that would be supportive for children and families, especially when we're thinking about the whole family and being able to do the things that you need to meet your family's basic needs, but knowing that your child is in a place where they'll be looked after, where we'll be learning, where they'll be happy, in making those social relationships.

I think that's what's crucial, especially for children who they might be in disadvantaged situations. So those are the two things that I would focus on. And in doing so, looking after the workforce, I think, is key.

Tom: Thank you. It's certainly a manifesto I'd vote for. Abi. So you can bank on my support if you run for that role. There is, actually, one final question that's come in just under the wire from Ammon Aurora, which I wonder if we could just pose to you Abi, before we finish up, which is for people feeling socially isolated, can we manage their hesitations about reaching out for support? How can we make this support feel more welcoming for people who are struggling then?

Abi: That's, do you know what? That's such that's such a lovely question. I think that's such a kind of good way to end. So to manage hesitations about reaching out for support. I think that having that first contact when you come into contact with someone, I think people often make such snapshot judgments about whether they can trust you or whether they can't just on that first basis. So I think having a welcoming approach, a young person suggested to me, why don't you make a TikTok style video showing your office and showings-- like just talking about yourself and who you are.

And those little things, I think, can make such a difference in people seeing you as someone who could be welcoming and who could be supportive. Often, we're hesitant to reach out because we might have misconceptions about the support we're going to receive or the person giving that support. So I think giving that kind of human touch I think is important and being kind of open. And also, if you get a no, the first, timer, being persistent and showing someone that you will show up for them I think is really important too.

Tom: Brilliant. Thanks. Well, this a lovely, lovely place to end the discussion. So. Firstly, I want to say thank you to everyone for a really interesting discussion. Thanks for your questions. It provided a lot of food for thought and I hope everyone has found this a stimulating discussion. Now we've reached the end of the event. I would be grateful if those joining us in the audience could fill in a short survey. We'll be sharing that in the chat. And it's also available in the event description.

As well as a thank you for filling out the survey, you'll be entered into a prize draw to win a £50 Bookshop.org voucher. And if you haven't already, please sign up for our newsletter where we let you know about all of the other events, we have coming up both online and in person. All that leaves is now for me to say, thank you, Abi, so much for your time. I've loved talking to you today. And I think the work you're doing is so vital and incredibly important.

So thank you for sharing your insights and knowledge with us. We're grateful. And I hope that we'll be able to speak to you again in the future.

Abi: Thanks, Tom. It was a pleasure.

Tom: No problem.