Andrew Sissons: Hello and welcome to Nesta Talks To, the latest in our conversational series with the biggest thinkers, the most exciting thinkers on big topics relating to our emissions and our work at Nesta. My name is Andrew Sissons. I'm a deputy director in the sustainable future mission here at Nesta. More on that in a moment. But for those of you who are new to Nesta, we are the UK's Innovation Agency for social good.

We design, test, and scale solutions to society's biggest problems. And our three missions are to help people live healthy lives, to create a sustainable future, and to give every child a fair start in life. The sustainable future mission which I'm part of focuses on trying to tackle climate change and to build a sustainable economy for generations to come. A big part of our focus is, of course, on energy and home heating, in particular.

And I'm delighted today to be talking to somebody who works in one of the biggest challenges we have around energy climate change and the transition to clean electricity, and indeed, clean heating. That is Sarah Harris from National Grid. So Sarah is external affairs manager at the National Grid-- hello, Sarah, and has worked in the energy sector--

Sarah Harris: Hi, Andrew.

Andrew: And Sarah has worked in the energy sector for over 20 years. She has extensive experience of strategic communications and political engagement with special skills in delivering consultation strategies for large infrastructure projects, including development consent order proposals. And coupled with this, she has a comprehensive background in crisis communications, press, and media. So welcome, Sarah. It's great to have you on.

Sarah: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Andrew: And we'll get in a moment into the details of this, and there's loads to talk about on National Grid, on your role, and on green jobs and skills. But before I start the conversation with Sarah, I just want to cover a quick bit of housekeeping. So if you are watching this on LinkedIn or on YouTube, you can join the conversation in the comments box on the right-hand side of your screen and ask any questions throughout the event.

The team here at Nesta will be passing those questions to me and to Sarah to ask as many as we possibly can. And we'll pick those up somewhere into the event. And closed captions can also be accessed via the LinkedIn Live stream, I believe, if that is useful. So with that out the way, Sarah will turn to starting, I guess, with just a bit of background to National Grid itself. So I wonder if you could just tell us quickly what National Grid does?

Sarah: So National Grid is an energy company. Put simply, we're responsible for the high-voltage network in the UK, powering homes and businesses across the country. Best way to describe it, really, is we're like the motorway. So we're the motorways. We transport energy at high voltage, and then we deliver it to companies like UK power networks who then step down the voltage and deliver it locally to local homes and businesses.

Andrew: That's really helpful. I wonder if I could just clarify. So National Grid, there's a number of different organisations of the bin-- a number of different organisations. National Grid in your case is, as you said, a transmission operator, but there's also the National Grid ESO.

Sarah: Yeah. So yeah, National Grid is multifaceted. We're made up of lots of different organisations. So for me in particular, I sit in National Grid electricity transmission. And we're responsible for the network, upgrading the network, making sure it's fit for the future that we can deliver on our net zero commitments. And then you've got another part of the National Grid business, which is a separate legal entity.

That's called the electricity system operator. And that part of the business is responsible for making sure that energy is balanced. And when you flick a switch on in your house, the energy is there. So they balance the network minute by minute, second by second. We also have a National Grid ventures business. And we also have a electricity distribution business, as well. So there's lots of different moving parts to it, but the piece I'm in is the exciting piece, from my perspective.

It's the transmission business. And this is where we're really busy at the moment, getting projects consented, building new infrastructure so we can meet on our net zero commitments.

Andrew: That's really helpful, and good to be clear where we're talking-- we are talking transmission today, and I guess that means cables and many other things. So guess the grid, the electricity grid, is a really big topic at the moment. I wonder if you could just set out why the grid and National Grid plays such an important role at the moment in the energy system and in achieving net zero.

Sarah: So we describe ourselves as being at the centre of the energy discussion in terms of net zero. Our infrastructure is critical in terms of connecting all the new offshore wind energy, green energy that is vital to be connected to meet the commitments that the government have made. So for example, the government have made a commitment to power all homes and businesses across the country with green energy by 2030.

So that's only seven years away. And the scale of that work, it means that we have to connect 50 gigawatts of offshore wind in that time, which is a massive challenge. And it's not one we're shying away from, but what that means in turn is that we need to do a lot of work across our network to make sure it's fit for the future.

And the way it's currently designed is set up, it was set up for a much lower demand. But the way demand is growing, the investment we're seeing is significant. So for example, over the next seven years, we have to build and consent five times as much as the infrastructure that we've built over the last 30. So our organisation is growing. We need more people to do the jobs. There's more projects that we have to get consented.

There's more communities we're impacting and we're working with to try and get these projects consented. So yeah, it's nothing that we can shy away from. It's a significant task in its own right, but it's something that we're working hard on to achieve.

Andrew: That's extraordinary, and it sets some context for the conversation and the kind of challenges we're going to get into a bit. But 50 gigawatts-- just to put that in context, 50 gigawatts is, I think, a fair bit more than the current average demand across the UK. So I think a typical winter's day, you're looking at 30 to 35 gigawatts at any one time as typical.

Sarah: Yeah, I believe so. I mean, I don't know the figure off the top of my head, but yeah, to put that in context, yeah, we're having to get that amount of wind energy connected in the next seven years.

Andrew: And so if that energy is connected as planned, 50 gigawatts, just to try and give some context to people, that means if all of those offshore wind turbines were turning at the same time, operating at full capacity at the same time, they'd be producing way more than all the electricity we need, not far off twice what we need.

But I know one of the big net zero challenges is that it's not just that we need to green the electricity system. We also need a lot more electricity for all of the electric vehicles and heat pumps and electrified industry and other things, which are going to be central to the net zero challenge, particularly over the next decade. So I just wanted to put some scale around.

Yeah, that really people in the audience.

And just to check, you said we need to go five times faster than we have been going to date.

Sarah: Yeah. So in the next seven years, we're looking to build five times the amount of infrastructure that we've built over the last 30 years. So the team I sit in, in particular I sit in external affairs, and my job is about going out to stakeholders to talk about the projects that we need to consent, and then if consent to get built, put in place community relations strategies. So yeah, our team is incredibly busy at the moment. And we're looking at the workbook and the pipeline of work coming through. Yeah, it's a job for life to say the least.

Andrew: It's extraordinary. It's really striking. I was in Liverpool a little bit at the Labour Party conference, and many colleagues from Leicester at the Conservative Party conference as well, and the grid is one of the issues which was coming up again and again as an issue that people, including politicians, have realised is a big challenge, a big barrier both to the UK's net zero plans, but also to the task of getting cheaper electricity.

And I think there was one figure from the energy sector, not from National Grid, but saying that 18 months ago, no one wanted to talk about the grid in political policy circles. And now I can tell you everybody was talking about it. So it's definitely central attention. I wonder, though, if we could just turn to-- I just want to just delve in a little bit more to this question of, what's actually involved in expanding the grid? So when we talk about this, what does a project look like? What are the things that--

Sarah: So there's so much work. A lot of the bigger projects that we're having to build will need what we call a development consent order. So that's a special permission from the Secretary of State for infrastructure that's deemed as being critically important to the nation. But when we go and we'll get a connection request, so it might be from a generator, an offshore wind generator-- the request comes in to us.

And then as an electricity business, we need to look at actually, where can we connect that business? What new infrastructure do we have to put in place? And then we have to look at, what part of the country does that infrastructure need to go in? And what type of technology are we using? You can appreciate, we're really heavily regulated business. We're regulated by Ofgem. We have to be able to justify every pound we spend.

So when we're looking at technology, we have to weigh up the economic impact of that, because eventually, ultimately everything goes back on the consumers bills. So by and large, we will be needing to put new overhead lines in place often in communities where people don't necessarily want the infrastructure, but understand the need for the infrastructure, as well as then routing, siting, looking at where we can place the infrastructure, weighing what are the environmental impacts?

What are the impacts in terms of visual amenity? How can we best balance that so we can minimise our impact on the local communities. We also go out and speak to those communities at the earliest as we possibly can to share our plans and provide some context to why we have to build this new infrastructure. I.e., net zero is the backdrop for doing that work, getting their feedback in terms of how that might impact them, how we can give back to communities.

And then we put our case and planning application together. It goes through a process where it's obviously challenged, and then hopefully we get the consent to go ahead and build the infrastructure. But it's no easy job because I think a lot of people understand why it's needed, but people don't necessarily want the infrastructure in place. There's a lot of different challenges to balance, lots of different people to speak to. And that's why we're so popular at the moment.

I don't think we've ever been so popular because of the way of the work we're having to carry out and the amount of people that want to speak to us. But that's great. I think in my job, it's about being transparent and being able to spell what the near case is, what the impacts are going to be, and actually listening to the different stakeholder groups, because feedback is really crucial to what we do. We're not going to go away anywhere, and we're neighbours to lots of people.

We want to be a good neighbour and we want to build what we're doing in the right way so it has minimal impact on communities, and we can also give back to communities, as well.

Andrew: That's really helpful, and it's so striking how much there is in doing this. Do you have-- I mean, for some of the bigger projects, how long would you expect it to take from start to finish.

Sarah: Typically, on some of our bigger projects along the East Coast, the consenting process is typically three years. And then you've got, once consented, the whole process of building in the infrastructure. And I don't think people always recognise the knock-on effect of what we're doing in that you have to start looking at supply chain and resources. So actually the equipment, that we're having to buy in is not readily available. It's not just like popping into an Asda and getting it off the shelf.

So there's long lead time to get the equipment ordered. So there's lots of challenges that we need to look at. But we're experts in the field. We've been around a long time. We know what we're doing. We just need more people and great brains to add to our organisation to make it happen.

Andrew: That's great. It's really striking, you say three years unconsenting. And we're talking about seven years as being the 50-gigawatt target. So as you say, the urgency and time is really tight. And I have to-- when you say, we've already got loads of really interesting questions coming in from the audience online today. So that's brilliant. I might come to a few of those in a moment, but please do keep the questions coming in.

And I've written down a few things there. It's brilliant to have such engagement. I just wanted to share some love from Jim Sims, who was-- I'll come to your question in a sec, Jim, but just pointing out your backdrop, including the rugby and football, which--

Confession to the audience, I've actually been tidying up slash rejigging my backdrop in time for this, having moved my seat. So I'm working behind the scenes on backdrops. But just before we come to a few audience questions, the last thing I just wanted to touch on in this section-- we're going to come to green skills and green jobs in a moment. But I just want to set some of the context for that about communities and engaging communities, because obviously this is a topic that's really important to you. How important is engaging communities to your work? And how do you approach that as National Grid?

Sarah: Well, in terms of engaging communities in general, so--

Andrew: Yeah.

Sarah: It's massively important to us. We need people to understand why we need to build the infrastructure and get them on board, really, and get a level of acceptance for what we're doing. So going out and speaking to people is incredibly important. And we do that by going out as early as possible. So we might not have a finite product or ideas for what we're doing, but going out to speak to your local councillors, local authorities, politicians, community groups, about the need for our work, why it's important, why it needs to take place.

And then when we get to the point of actually going out and having a statutory consultation where we've actually got detailed plans, which we've been developing over several months, several years-- we then ask for specific feedback around the visual impact and the routing of our infrastructure and people's local knowledge. So yeah, we really, really value people's feedback. And the earlier we can flesh out concerns and issues and problems, the better, because that then can inform the process of getting the projects developed, planned, consented, and ultimately built.

But we do recognise that not everyone's going to like us. We get a lot of opposition to what we do, mainly because of the nature of the infrastructure we're putting in place. And as part of that, we want to give back to local communities. So when we're doing that consultation process, we're often talking about, actually, what can we give back to the community to make things better for you? Are there educational initiatives that we can invest in?

Do you need more electrical charging points for your cars, for example? So recognise the issue is not going to go away, but the enormity of the challenge of building that amount of infrastructure in the next few years is massive. So it has to happen. There's no shying away from that.

But if there's a way we can do that in terms of making things better for the community, in terms of community benefit or investing in local schools and education and upskilling people, I think that's a great place to be because we can give lots of opportunities for communities and walks of life that so often are overlooked, as well.

Andrew: It's really interesting to hear that. And one thing that strikes me is when we-- we're going to come on green skills shortly, but when we talk green skills, it strikes me that presumably, the people doing that community engagement-- I don't know if it's a full-time job in itself just doing community engagement, or whether it's a big part of people's roles. But it's something you wouldn't necessarily typically have down as a kind of green skill, but clearly those engagement skills are crucial to your organisation and to many others.

Sarah: Yeah, definitely. And I think green skills are anything which is touching green energy, really. So as I said, I work in a communications capacity. And a big part of my job is actually going out and speaking to communities about these projects that we need to get built. And we need more people like myself that are articulate-- probably more articulate than I am-- who are confident, who are good with people, who can tell a narrative.

And then we need people that can get the projects consented so people have really strong planning policy backgrounds, you understand the nuts and bolts of working with local authorities or the planning inspector. And then we need environmentalists, so people that understand the impact of our works and what mitigations we can put in place to make the environment better.

We need lots of bright engineers who have really crazy bright minds who can build the infrastructure and look at more efficient ways of building the infrastructure. We need more accountants to look at how we can drive efficiencies through the business. And we need to really work closely with our supply chain. So there's a lot of expertise within National Grid as an organisation, but we rely heavily on contractors to build the infrastructure.

So we need to work really close with them to make sure they're employing the right people. We're securing work for them in a different way than we've ever secured before, so we've got that confidence that we've got the right people in the right places to hit the ground running.

Andrew: That's great. I guess you can say, in terms of your role, this is what a green job looks like, and there's many others.

Sarah: Yeah. I would class my job going forward as a green job.

Andrew: It is absolutely a green job. I think we would [INAUDIBLE].

Exactly that.

Andrew: It's a really important point that it isn't just the-- you don't need to be holding a spanner or working some kind of really complicated design tool or something to be playing a crucial role in net zero. That's really what-- I'm going to turn to a few audience questions, if that's all right, just on a few topics related to this because there's some great questions coming through. Please feel free.

Some of them may be-- there's some of these questions that get into areas of government policy, which might not be for you to talk about today. But I'll ask a few of them and see what we get to. So Ian MacKinnon has asked, what are the biggest constraints faced by National Grid as it works towards net zero? And what else would help in reducing those barriers? You set out the challenge and the barriers. But what gets in the way the most? And what would you change if you could?

Sarah: Yeah. I've touched on it already, actually getting public acceptance for what we're trying to do. People don't necessarily want the infrastructure in their backyard. And that's difficult because we have to build it. People need energy. And we have to make the planet and our country a cleaner place. Climate change is a massive issue. It's not going to go anywhere, and it's not going to go away.

And we have to make our network fit for the future so we can power local homes and businesses with greener energy and become-- and we're not relying on fossil fuels. So the community challenge is significant and massive, and I think key to getting communities on board is going in early and getting them to understand why the work is needed.

But the piece around community benefit is massive. So actually, what can we give back to communities to make day-to-day life better for communities? Whether it's upskilling people's children or looking at environmental practises, extra charging points, that's great.

I'm not a policy expert, but the planning regime as it stands at the moment, while it's very comprehensive and purposeful and it means that stakeholders get a good platform to feed back, I wouldn't say it's fit for purpose as it stands because the volume of work means we need to get projects consented in a more efficient way. But whatever reform needs to happen, communities have to be central to that process.

It's really important that communities continue to have a voice and can feed back on the proposals. So we continue to work closely with government on that form. And then some of the other challenges around supply chain, so making sure that we have the equipment available and ready when we need it. So we even begin to look at, actually, how do we procure our projects and procure materials and procure our supply chain so we can work more efficiently and deliver against the challenges of net zero?

So there's lots of challenges. It's not an easy job, but it's something that we've been looking at for many years already, and we're growing the capability of our organisation and its capacity to make sure we've got the right people in the right jobs who are speaking to the right people to make net zero happen by 2050.

Andrew: Thank you. Just to follow up on that slightly, because you mentioned the the planning side, which clearly is something that National Grid as others are working with government on. Roger Blamire-- apologies if I'm getting any pronunciation wrong on names. But Roger's asked, is the UK government setting enough policy direction incentives to drive predictability and sufficient investment?

You also talked about planning. Are there any other areas of policy-- without wanting to put you into the spot too firmly, there are any others of policy that are on National Grid's radar to work with government on?

Sarah: I think planning policy is key because unlocking that and making it more efficient will mean that we can get these projects consented. But as I say, in the right way, communities are at the heart of that debate and getting feedback on what we're proposing. I think skills is another area which won't translate in policy, but I think we seriously need to look at because-- I know it's something that we're going on to speak to shortly as part of this conversation.

But if you look at the energy infrastructure-- energy industry, sorry, as it stands at the moment, based on a report and research we did back in 2020, our prediction is we need to fill something in the region of 400,000 jobs over the next 30 years to deliver on net zero. And that's a massive commitment. And actually, finding those people and giving those people into jobs is tricky.

And the challenge we face is that when we're an ageing organisation at National Grid, most people are middle aged, if not older. Children have the opportunity at school to study a plethora of jobs, which is the right thing. But what you're finding, STEM subjects and engineering aren't jobs that people typically want to go into. So there's a massive challenge, actually, around the educational piece, actually making young people aware of what the opportunities are within the energy sector.

But through our work with an organisation called Connector, which we'll also speak about in due course, it's actually making sure if you're looking at the curriculum, we're equipping our young people with the right skills and qualifications to be able to go into these jobs, which in some cases are quite niche.

Andrew: That's brilliant. Let's get stuck into green skills. There's loads of questions coming through. I'll try and come back to some of those after the session. But I just want to move us into green skills, as Sarah has very skillfully done. So just-- sorry, I just want to make sure I've picked out the right numbers there, because the first bit I had was just how big a challenge is, the workforce and skills for you.

So how many more people do you think National Grid needs? And you talked about some of the range of skills, but do you have any sense of the scale of--

Sarah: So not for National Grid specifically. Across the organisation, across the industry, we over the next 30 plus years, it's in the region of 400,000 jobs-- I'm just checking my notes here. By 2030 in particular, we need to fill another 120,000 jobs. So the scale is massive. And like I said, the way our society is set up with people going off to university and so forth, it only attracts a certain skill set or a certain walk of life.

And if we want to attract the brightest minds and be accessible to all people, we need to change the way we look at that. There's often young people that are overlooked because they don't come from the right background or because they don't have the same opportunities as some people in society.

So we need to be speaking to all walks of life across the board to give them those opportunities, make them aware of those opportunities so that we can, A, give them work, but B, fulfil our need to get more skilled people into the organisation to deliver on our net zero commitments.

Andrew: It's really helpful. And 120,000 jobs and 400,000-- 120,000 jobs across the sector, they're huge numbers. And as I understand it, there aren't necessarily-- there isn't that pipeline of people coming in yet. And you've talked a bit about-- as well as, I was going to ask about green skills, what those skills actually look like. But it is a real-- as you say, it's the real case. This isn't just like engineers or whatever. It's a whole range of roles across the sector that support it.

I wonder, given how many different skills you need, is there one bit of the educational journey or the careers journey that you think is more important than any other? Is there a kind of-- is the place you need to focus about schools? Is it about colleges and apprenticeships? Is it about university? Is it is it the on-the-job training? Is it retraining for experienced workers who might be looking for a change? Is there one that's more important than the other, or is it--

Sarah: No, I don't think there's necessarily one that's more important than the other. I made the point, you need to be able to appeal to all walks of life and all different communities and people that perhaps wouldn't necessarily get the opportunity because of where they are in the community. So I think the approach is multifaceted.

I think in terms of a school's remit, we know by the age of 14 most children would-- well, young people would have chosen their options for GCSE. Most will be on some form of pathway to go into a job they eventually might want to take at the age of 16, 18, or beyond. So from a school perspective, you need to go in really early, I think.

So from as young as the age of primary school, going in, inspiring people about STEM subjects and net zero, climate change and so forth. And then I think once you get to the point of children being 14, 14 plus, it's actually looking at presenting career opportunities and dispelling, what does it mean, actually coming to work for the industry? And what do you need to do? But it's also working with colleges and universities.

And it's also working with different sectors, as well. So there's a lot of people, for example, in the army that will have left the army and will be looking for opportunities who will have an incredible skill set around project management, managing people, engineering roles that we could manage for them, or part-time mums or mums that have taken time out of the workplace to bring up children, but would be looking for opportunities to return to work into the workplace.

No reason why we can't tap on that, tap on that capacity and capability there, too. So I think it works across the board. And for me, it's all about industries, not just the energy industry, but other partners, educational establishment, other businesses coming together, looking at the challenge, looking at where we need to be and how we can make that happen.

Andrew: That's really helpful. I wonder if we could just delve into the schools a bit, because you mentioned connections and things you're doing schools, which I think is certainly in the sector something that wouldn't necessarily be traditionally on your radar. But just tell me a bit about the work National Grid is doing in schools, because it sounds really important.

Sarah: Yeah. So we do a lot of work with schools. We start off young, like I said, so going into primary school, working with organisations like math science, which is just really to generate some excitement around some of the STEM subjects like engineering, technology, maths, science, which is great.

And then a programme that I'm working really closely with at the moment is with a social enterprise called Connector. And the challenge of that programme, we've got-- well, we set a target to work with over 100,000 students over the life of the programme. We started that programme three years ago. And in this case, we actually work with slightly older children, so children from key stage 3 and above. We go into schools. We deliver different resources and workshops around net zero.

And we also run things like work experience. We have mentors from our business going in, asking questions around employability, different work streams into National Grid and the energy industry more broadly. And I think the key note for our business is actually one of the [AUDIO OUT] the young people directly. So then from the horse's mouth, actually, what does the job entail? How much do you get paid? What is job security about? What are the exciting things that we're involved with doing?

So it's a very hands-on approach, and it's been incredibly valuable. Like I said, we've just kicked off year four of the programme. Academic year started in September, and we've already worked with over 85,000 pupils through that process.

Andrew: And do you think-- at what point do you-- I guess I'm interested in what kind of results you think might come through. Obviously, it's great to have people of school age engaged in this thing and aware of the kinds of opportunities there are in green jobs. At what point-- I guess what kind of other results you hope for in terms of making those people more likely to come and work for National Grid or in net zero more generally. And at what point do you see that bearing fruit?

Sarah: Yeah. For me, the ideal place I'd like to see or be in is actually seeing a pipeline of talent secured for our business as a direct result of us having conversations with the young people that we've been working with through our programme with Connector. So that would be the ultimate goal. What we're starting to see for our programme already is that there's more of a takeoff amongst young females around pursuing STEM careers or pursuing STEM subjects at further education, higher education, beyond which is a really, really good starting space.

But I think at the moment, there's quite a lot of work to get to that place. We've made some really good waves in terms of having an impact. So we know we've worked with over 85,000 pupils. People are interested. They're actually interested to learn. Actually, there's lots of different dimensions to National Grid and lots of different types of jobs you could come and do at the organisation. So actually, it is actually quite a good, exciting place to be, and it pays well, which is really high on the agenda for young people.

It tends to be the first question we get asked when we go out to schools. But It's job security, as well. You work in the energy industry. It's a job for life. And that's really important, as well.

Andrew: That's really fascinating. Yeah, some of the messages that come through-- and I just want to touch a little bit. We're going to come back a little bit to diversity in a moment, as well, because it's a hugely important topic here. But the point about girls and women, in this case in schools, being perhaps nudged a little bit more towards some of the career choices and educational choices that might move into green jobs.

It's a really important point because something we've found in some of the research Nesta has done here is that to date, there does seem to be a bit of a male bias in green jobs, generally both in terms of how many people are doing green jobs-- a lot of sectors are quite male-dominated-- And also in terms of actually just the level of interest in some of the training.

So it's really encouraging to hear that what you're finding is that some of these interventions early in schools do actually change that, and that there are things-- these things are not set in stone, and actually with the right support and with giving the right messages, and [INAUDIBLE] to people, you can change that.

Sarah: Yeah. And I think it's breaking down some myths and stereotypes about the energy industry. I think you go out to schools, and probably quite rightly so really up until recently, you ask people what an engineer looks, like they tend to wear short-sleeved shirts, have a pen in their pocket, and they tend to be 50 plus.

And for young people, when they're influenced by loads of different YouTubers selling Prime and things like that, it doesn't necessarily appeal. So what we've tried to do really well at National Grid and our programme with Connector is find the right role models to go out and speak to these [AUDIO OUT].

Andrew: Sorry, Sarah, I think we've had a pause in your connection. I think it's your connection, but I'm hoping it will come back on soon.

Oh, we're back. Sorry.

Sorry, Sarah. I think that might have been your connection. It was possibly just me. Yes, I've got you. I just lost you there, so apologies, everybody watching. I'm worrying I'm going to have to start--

Sarah: Can you hear me OK?

Andrew: I can hear you all right. The video is a little bit off, but hopefully it will pull back through. So I think we just lost you. You might have been wrapping up.

Sarah: Yeah, great. So I'll just pick up where I just left, if that's all right.

Andrew: Go for it.

Sarah: So we're talking about having the right role models. Yeah. Can you hear me OK? So we're talking about having the right role models going out, speaking to young people. So we've got a great team of young female engineers who can go out and speak directly to some of the female students at school and dispel some of these myths about, actually, what does an engineer look like?

And sometimes we get questions like-- and this sounds a bit random, but oh my gosh, you're really pretty. I don't think pretty people were engineers. So we're just trying to dispel those myths and get more people engaged and show the breadth of work that's on offer and the valuable experiences and job security that you can get for life.

Andrew: That's really, really valuable. Just before we turn a bit more into the makeup of the workforce, and yeah, making the jobs you have and green jobs generally more open to everybody, I just want to touch on a question I have, which is-- and it's a really difficult question, I think, across green jobs, which is, what should we say to people who are finishing school or starting college, or some kind of point where they're starting to think about careers?

What should we say to them about their career in green jobs? What kind of career advice do you think you would give somebody who's interested in green jobs, but doesn't really know where to look or what to do next?

Sarah: Gosh, that's a really good question. I'm not sure. I think I'd encourage people, really, in terms of green skills, to be really open-minded about the opportunities that are there. Go and speak to loads of people. Go and understand actually what a green skill is. And actually, if you speak to most people in the workforce today, most people's jobs will touch on green skills in some form and have a contribution to net zero.

To me, 10 years ago it perhaps wouldn't have been that obvious. But now what's key to my role is speaking to the right people and making sure we can get the projects consented so we can build infrastructure, which is going to power green homes to local businesses and local schools and local homes. So that's massive. My job is making a massive contribution to green skills and net zero.

So I think for young people, it's about being open-minded. But there's a big educational piece around that-- actually, what is a green skills job? What kind of skill set do you need? What kind of qualifications do you need to be able to go into that kind of work, as well?

Andrew: Yeah, it's really interesting. And presumably, to make that work, that message about more role models, more access to seeing people doing this and making it real for people and helping people get that sort of advice, that's really crucial. I wonder-- just one question that's come in from the audience which might be a bit tricky, but see how far we can pin it down.

It's come from Kirsten Coughtrie who asks-- I appreciate there's lots of different skill, but Sarah, what skills would you predict are most crucial in that sense of, are there particular skills that jump out? I know there's a range of things, but is there anything that you'd say, this is really one of the areas we're going to be short and really encourage people to get into?

Sarah: There's a lot of more skills around the IT space and also things around artificial intelligence and virtual reality. And actually, that's probably a really good space to be because those kind of platforms and that technology is speaking in young people's terms. They like wearing those headsets for gaming and so forth, so that's a massive skill set that we will need people coming into.

From my perspective, I keep saying, but actually having environmentalists and people that can get these projects, our projects consented, and have a really good understanding of what our impacts on the local environment and how we can build these projects safely but with minimal impact, is also really key. But for me, there's also a big piece around actually making sure we attract all walks of life.

And we're helping those communities that need the help because you can't just rely on current recruitment streams. And I'm pretty sure that was part of the question that was raised, but disadvantaged students are often overlooked because it's thought that they might not have the skill set to do these jobs. But the way society is set up, they're just not getting the right opportunities or they're not positioned or have the right financial support to get into these roles.

So I think mentoring is massively important in attracting those disadvantaged students and getting out and speaking to them and seeing what help we can provide so we can give them worthwhile job opportunities is enormous.

Andrew: That's really helpful. And just to lean in a little bit to the question about diversity and inclusion-- I guess this is a really obvious question, but why is it important to National Grid to have that diversity in your workforce?

Sarah: Diversity is brilliant. And diversity can come in lots of different forms. It can from the colour of your skin. It can be age, experience, bright minds. It can even mean, I'm a working mum. It can come down to that, actually having working moms. And that's really-- for my job in particular, that's really important in terms of the internal organisation perspective and in teams.

It's actually having lots of different contributing thoughts and factors and opinions so when we're making decisions, we're looking at lots of different opinions and we're not going stale. But from an external perspective, as well, when I go out into communities in London or East Anglia or the north of the country, I want the team that I'm in to represent the communities I am speaking to.

And I want the communities that I'm speaking to be able to relate to my team and what we're saying. Like if I can go and speak to someone from a mum's perspective about concerns around health and infrastructure, that's reassuring that I have the same concerns and I can put those concerns to bed. But also, for young people, they want to be able to speak to young people because they'll be able to engage young people, or people want to be able to speak to someone of experience or from the same ethnic minority.

So it's incredibly important in terms of our job. And we're doing a lot of work in that space to make sure that our teams are more diverse. And that platform is going to continue to grow.

Andrew: That's brilliant. And I wonder, because obviously this is a challenge Nesta grapples with, as well, and a huge question of how we improve the diversity of people who work here and support that through the work we do is a massive challenge. I just wonder if there are any examples of things that you've seen or done that really jump out in this area? I guess it's that kind of, how do you and many other organisations like yours make a difference, and anything that jumps out?

Sarah: Yeah. We're trying to see look at lots of different approaches. So by nature of the job at National Grid, particularly with the engineering roles, you do need to be eventually quite qualified and have good STEM qualifications. But by and large, you tend to find young people in that space because they have gone to the right schools, and they have had the mentoring support at home. And we're trying to turn our approach on its head a tiny bit and experiment with different approaches.

So we're going into communities and actually helping those people that need it the most. So rather than asking for a max list of qualifications or grades from GCSEs, or saying you require five B's, two A's-- I don't know-- we're taking it on the head and say, we don't want to hear from anyone who's got more than two GCSEs.

So we're actually pinpointing those young people who really need the help the most. And it doesn't mean they're not able to do the jobs. It just means that they haven't got the right mentoring support at home or they've been overlooked at school. So we can go in and give them those opportunities. And I think by that way, we're starting to work with different young people who are often overlooked and give them the same opportunities, and perhaps a better level playing field.

And it's also about promoting the different ways into the organisation. Often, people are very fixated on, oh, I must go to university and get a degree. But that's not the only way to come into an organisation. Apprentices are massively important and valuable to our organisation. You come in on an apprenticeship scheme from 16 plus, or you can go on a-- sorry, 18-- or a higher apprentice. And you can basically walk straight into a job, do the job and do on-the-job training, and that's a really, really valuable pathway to an organisation.

I think often, it's a pathway that's overlooked because it's not deemed as prestigious as going off to university and having a degree behind you. But actually, you can do equally as well coming through an apprenticeship scheme. And actually, you're learning real life skill jobs straight away. And you can accelerate the career ladder quite quickly.

Andrew: Brilliant. That's really helpful. And yeah, totally agree that the idea that there's only one way into these jobs is completely outdated. But yeah, it makes a lot of sense. What I'm going to do-- we've got loads of questions from the audience still, and thank you so much, everybody, for sending them in. I'm just going to ask a couple that are about the green skill space.

And then I'm going to try doing a bit of a quick fire through some of the other questions we've had by way of time. So the first couple, just to spend a bit of time on. So the first is from Jessica Taylor, which is, where should grads or people joining the green industry be looking for opportunities? And are there any sectors which would be accelerating in the future and are accelerating now?

You can have a go at that. It might be one for me to back up on, as well, from a Nesta point of view, but just interested in your reflections.

Sarah: I'm going to say this anyway, but come to the energy industry. There's just heaps of opportunities for us. Like I said, in terms of the vast volume, vast types of products and the volume of infrastructure we need to build, we need people to come in here now to National Grid. So if you're interested in graduates specifically, National Grid and our partners run really comprehensive, well thought-after graduate programmes. So yeah, big advocate for the energy industry because we need you.

In terms of other industry sectors, I'm not an expert. I don't work in an HR field, but I think part of our challenge of getting young people in is that we're competing with lots of different industries anyway. Whatever organisation you're in now, people are having to change their practises so they're greener. They're having to accelerate recruitment process because they need more people to do the job. So I think across the board, it's a significant challenge. But for us over the next seven years, it's a very real challenge in particular.

Andrew: No, that's really helpful. Just to offer some examples to the question, we know obviously Nesta works very closely on home heating. There are loads and loads of jobs in heat pumps and fitting low-carbon heating devices, as well as retrofit, which are going to be out there and which obviously require their own skills and have their own rewards.

I know that we shouldn't forget in terms of green jobs lots of work on the land, both in sustainable farming and also in nature restoration, which is a really important area. And it's worth, also-- and there's obviously, within manufacturing industrial sectors, there's loads and loads of need for different efforts to reduce carbon emissions in those sectors. And we shouldn't also forget things like the financial services sector, things like education, which play a huge role.

And we know from some of the testing we've done at Nesta that those jobs also, having green jobs within those more service-oriented sectors, is also really important and really attractive to people. So there are lots of green jobs out there and lots of organisations after them. But we've got to get that message to people and help connect them to the best jobs for them, I guess.

I'll just turn to-- again, apologies if the pronunciation is off, but to Aurelie L's question, which is, what's your view slash initiatives around lifelong learning and retraining adults to enable them to shift their career towards green jobs?

Sarah: Yeah. I think it's a place that we need to be in as much as being out in schools trying to influence and encourage young people to pursue careers in STEM-orientated positions. So lifelong learning, adult learning, is hugely, hugely, hugely important. And we do work in that space, as well. So through some of our infrastructure projects, we work with local authorities and communities to identify where there is a skill need and look at employment levels, and actually getting adults back into employment, which has been really, really purposeful and successful.

We've recently also signed a covenant with the Ministry of Defence, which looks at actually how can we get veterans back into the workforce? Unlike some countries, National Grid doesn't have legislation in place to protect army leavers in terms of securing work once they leave the army. But National Grid has taken strides in that space to actually, how can we make it more level playing field for people that have left the army to make sure they can come on board and fulfil worthwhile careers post-army life?

And there's a lot of transferable skills from that sector. So they might have not worked in the energy sector, but they know about project management, crisis management, issues management. A lot of them are engineers by trade, so I think that's valuable. And it goes back to even mothers returning from work after taking long breaks and maternity leave. So my viewpoint, and as an organisation, we have to be appealing to all ages and all walks of life.

And there's a lot of-- we'd be silly if we weren't, because there's a lot of untapped talent and skill set there, which is ready to go and doesn't necessarily need to be trained up.

Andrew: Fantastic. That's a really important, really good question, really important point to make. Just one last question which came earlier-- and apologies, I should have put this up sooner-- from Ade Adebowale, which was-- I think we've picked up some of the answer, which is, what are the opportunities for training, skills development, and jobs in the sector?

But I was particularly interested in this last bit about, how can we support local enterprises and social organisations to be part of this, too? Obviously National Grid is a big company, but are there things you can do with your supply chain or with other, smaller organisations to help them make that transition, as well, particularly in the context of skills?

Sarah: Yeah. So in terms of the programme we deliver with Connect at the moment, where we go into secondary schools to promote careers in the industry and job opportunities and work packages around net zero and STEM subjects, our supply partners are fully on board with that. So it's not just National Grid volunteering in the schools. Our supply chain is volunteering in the schools, as well.

And net zero is not going to happen unless we get our supply chain on board, as well. And we build our infrastructure through a supply chain. So we need to make sure that we get the right people on board to do that. So we do a lot of what we need. We work really closely with our supply chain in that space. And what you'll probably find is they're already doing a lot of work in their own vein to make sure we're recruiting the right people and speaking to the right people.

So some of the organisations, I work with lots of unemployment charities and social enterprises in terms of getting people back into work or training programmes to help in that space.

Andrew: Fantastic. Right. The risk of-- I'm causing a lot of pain for Katrina, our wonderful person who is the brains behind the Nesta Talks To operation today, who has to get some of these questions onto the screen. I'm going to go quite quickly through some of the remaining questions. And I will answer some of them, I think, because they might be a better place for me. But if that's all right, we'll go quickly through some of the ones I have in front of me.

So the first one is from Sonal Shukla, which is, is solar energy also something that Nesta is considering? So good question. So Nestor's focus within our mission is primarily on home heating because we think that's something really difficult. And solar energy is obviously-- well, I think it's something that's going really well around the world.

That said, one of the key things for whatever you're doing on net zero is cheap, clean electricity, as much of it as we can get, and as Sarah has been talking about connecting that cheap clean electricity to the grid. So I think solar energy is massively part of our thinking. It's not something Nesta specialises in, but it's obviously solar along with wind.

They are the big growth technologies here and around the world. So they are definitely very much in our thinking and crucial to the transition, but I'm certainly not an expert in it. Related to that-- it's a very long question, so I don't know how this will come up on screen. But it's a question I referred to earlier from Jim Sims, which was about HVDC sub c-cable technologies.

So I don't know if you have any idea about this, but I know there's a proposal, for example, to-- one of the really ambitious proposals here is the Morocco solar link into-- I think you'd go into North Devon. Is HVDC sub c-cable technologies on your radar, Sarah? You're welcome to say no. It's a quick format.

Sarah: I specialise in comms, but I'm not an engineering expert on HDVC cables. It's part of when we look at connecting new sources of energy and where we connect energy from. We do look at offshore connections. That is a big piece of what we do as part of the energy mix. We also trade across interconnectors. So we, through our National Grid ventures business, we have a lot of interconnections with Europe so that we're broadening our energy mix but ensuring sustainability of energy-- or security of supply more so, should I say, from Europe.

So we continue to balance energy second by second, minute by minute. So yeah, it's very much part of the mix. But if you have any further questions in that space, please pick up with me separately and I can make sure I get the right answers back to you. Sorry, I'm just not quite the right person to provide--

Andrew: No, no, no. Sorry, this is the reason why I said--

Is I don't want you to feel under pressure to give answers to questions that you've already covered a massive amount of ground, Sarah. I'm just going to keep going with quickfire, but yeah, noting that not expecting perfect answers from you. The next one from [INAUDIBLE] from Jahron G, which is about the environmental impact of infrastructure expansion plans. And this, I guess, speaks to really important attention is that on the one hand, upgrading the grid is crucial for net zero.

But at the same time, it can have ecological impacts. Is there anything you can say about how you manage that tension between local disruption to nature and natural environment versus the need for this kit?

Sarah: Yeah. As much as our programme, of infrastructure build is accelerating substantially, we've been building infrastructure in areas for years. And our impact on the local environment and ecology is something we take really, really seriously. So on any of our projects, we have an appointed ecologist and environmentalist, which will look at the infrastructure, where we're proposing to build it, what the impact will be on local habitats.

As part of that, there's loads of assessments and surveys that take place. And then when we put in our applications, we'd have really clear environmental impact assessments, which spell out what the potential impacts could be, but what the clear mitigations we will put in place to make sure we're not having that impact. So there's lots we're already doing in that space.

We're good at what we're doing in that space. And going forward with the acceleration of work, it will continue to be a really key factor in terms of, A, yes, we need to build the infrastructure. Yes, people need green energy. But we're very much aware of the impact we have on the local environment. We want to be a good neighbour, and we want to leave a place as healthy and as well as we found it when we first came into the area.

Andrew: Fantastic. And thanks so much, everyone, for all your questions. I'm just going to take one more, and sorry we haven't had time to get through all of them. But please do, if you're curious about some of these, take up Sarah's offer of directing questions in her or National Grid's direction. Just the last question, really interesting one for me, was from Nyxion Grid, which is about isolated areas where some of this can be difficult to retrofit or other things can be difficult to be done, in places like Orkney, I guess.

Is that a big factor in National Grid's work? Or is it something that that question of where you're dealing with off-shore stuff and people needing to be in quite remote areas potentially in the sea, as well?

Sarah: Yeah. It's challenging. Some of the skills that we need aren't local to where we do it, so your skill set tends to move with you from project to project. But there's a lot of work we're doing at the moment with government and Ofgem consulting on, actually, what does community betterment look like? And in terms of upskilling people, what can we do so that that's not an issue, that's not a problem for us later down the road?

So yeah, I can appreciate some areas are quite cut off and quite isolated because people won't have the skill set. And we recognise that's an issue. Ideally, it would be great when we go into communities that we can-- and we will look to do this where we possibly can-- provide local jobs and upskilling opportunities. And as an organisation, it's something that we take very seriously.

So in terms of our community benefit, betterment, community investment, we're looking at, actually, what more can we do in that space to skill people so that they can come and work for us directly on local projects?

Andrew: Fantastic. We're coming up to 1:00, so that's been an amazing run-through of loads of issues. Thanks so much to everybody for listening, and apologies if I didn't get to all of your questions, but you certainly answered a lot. But I suspect that was quite-- I certainly found that incredibly enlightening, Sarah. That was quite an intense experience, going through such a wide range of topics. Of course. Thank you so much for joining us, and I hope that's provided some food for thought.

Now that we've reached the end of the event, I'd be really grateful, if you're in the audience, if you could please fill in a short survey, which I think will be in the chat and available on LinkedIn, YouTube, wherever you are. And if you do fill in the survey, as I think you will be entered into a prize draw to win a 50 pound bookshop.org voucher. Should have taken book recommendations for what to spend that on if you win it.

And if you haven't already, please do sign up for Nesta's newsletter. And we'll let you know about other events like this going on, as well as research projects and other ways to get involved in what we do. But I just want to finally, thanks to the audience, thanks to Katrina and the team here at Nesta who have the technology behind the scenes to make this possible and do a wonderful job.

And finally, I just want to say a big thank you to Sarah. I think there was a question, Sarah, about whether people could contact you if there were further questions?

Sarah: Yeah. I don't think I did a great job in answering the HDVC question, but please do get in touch. If people do have further questions, happy for them to contact me directly on my email, which is [email protected]. Sensible questions, that is, and I'll make sure I've filled it off to the right place. But I think that's probably the best way, really, to get in touch.

Andrew: Fabulous. Thanks so much for joining us. And Sarah, yeah, huge thank you. Have a great rest of the afternoon, everyone listening, and take good care. Goodbye.

Sarah: Yeah. Thanks for having me.